Thursday, May 24, 2007

Through the Looking Glass - episode discussion Vol. 2













Continue the fake beard conversations here.

200 comments:

casey_donahue said...

first!

and i agree with aimee the christian shephard thing with jack being a junkie/drunken halucination idea is a cop out

Anonymous said...

I suspect they will leave the island but somehow its coordinates will be lost. But, it seems Jack knows how to get back to it. What is with Locke killing someone. Seems Charlie was an idiot too, he could have saved himself and still been rescued. If it was Michael who died, Jack should be happy the murderer is dead. Michael is caca. Sawyer killing Tom - how sad. Why didn't Locke kill Ben?

casey_donahue said...

locke didnt kill ben because they want us to wait untill february to get justice

sawyer is a loose canon now, he doesnt seem to care about anything except justice...like the punisher...so maybe sawyer will be the new captain america?

thats my theory for season 4

Anonymous said...

I have a feeling next episode will start with them all off the island.
But, 5 pieces of justice need to be done

1) Sawyer needs to tried and executed for the murder of Tom and the man in Australia.

2) Kate needs to be tried and executed for the murder of her step-father.

3) Michael needs to be tried and executed for the murder of Libby and Ana-Lucia.

4) Locke needs to be tried and executed for the murder of Naomi.

5) Ben needs to be tortured and executed for various mass-murders.

By the way I miss the girls in the Looking Glass and Nikki.

MB said...

Wow - this is a first - my last post overlaps w/the early risers in the east. man

and a new thread - damn, now nobodys going to read the book I wrote on the last thread - lol

I just came back to add that Jaters can be happy - he actually said "I love you" to Kate. And (being pre-emptive here) don't anyone give me any "that was platonic" crap. I don't personally care who she bangs, but that was a Jater moment for sure.

MB said...

Also - Casey (and others of like mind)- I don't think Jack was hallucinating about his Father or anything. I think Andrew was right in the last thread that Jack was just making a smart-ass comment about getting his father "Down here" (i.e. from heavan) to see who's drunker.

nighty night for real now

tall guy said...

I first I felt kinda flat after the episode ended. It wasn't what I expected or hoped for, and it felt so bleak. However on reflection, I think it's extremely cool of the creators to take such a risk. I'm hoping that next season will continue to tell the stories of the Losties, post island, and that the island stuff will be all flashback. This structure will give a whole new lease of life for the characters, and give the show two parallel narratives. One showing how they leave the island, while the other tells how they eventually return.

PalmerEldritch said...

Poignant Article ;)

So, Ben's away. Locke's looking for a new group to hang out with. Alpert thinks that Ben's a lying sack o' crap. So, pretty much, Locke will lead the Others next season?

memphish said...

I can't imagine that Jack thinks his Father is in Heaven. If he'd said get him up here, I'd be more inclined to buy that story.

I think the LOSTies have engaged in a major cover-up of some sort to explain their re-appearance in the real world, thus Jack's rant to Kate about lying. Tons of poeple recognized him as the hero of the bridge, but no one said, and hey you're that plane crash guy too which I think is a clue. I think this is also why Kate and Sawyer aren't in jail. The authorities don't know they're there.

I don't know how to explain that Jack is Jack and they don't know that the world doesn't know he was on Flight 815, but I get the sense that's the case. I could be wrong. It wouldn't be a first.

Holli

memphish said...

JonJon last night said he hope this doesn't become The Fountain with past, present and future mixing and out of order. The book Catch-22 is written that way as well.

Ralph, I think Hurley will definitely show Sayid "Say Anything" and we'll see the scene with Sayid, Nadia and a boom box next season. Will it be real time, flash forward, flash back? Beats the hell out of me.

Holli

Mike Campbell said...

man that was a hum diddle doo of a good finalle. I think Jack said call my father cause he was trippin balls on oxy. Thats why the other doctor reacted so much.

I am glad to see Jack turned into House in the future.

PalmerEldritch said...

Jack needed a Dr. Wilson to keep him out of trouble.

Anonymous said...

-Holli -i agree that people seemed to recognize Jack more as the hero from the bridge than as the guy whose plane crashed, but i think his lines to the other doctor about 'do you know who i am? then you know what i've been through' were foreshadowing that he'd already been in the crash. Oceanic obviously acknowledged them surviving the plane crash by giving them golden tickets, so maybe it was just that their 15 minutes of fame were up already and they'd sunk back into their lives of anonymnity. I think it would take a while for Jack to sink into despair after getting them off the island and Kate was obviously tired of Jack's shit.

-It could be really cheesy, but i really like unkillable Mikhail. My crazy theory about that is that he's a manifestation of the island used to infiltrate Ben's group. The island entrusts Ben to protect it and Mikhail is it's way of keeping tabs. Mikhail is loyal to Ben because their goals are the same. Mikhail/the island starts to doubt that Ben has its best interests at heart after the Locke stuff, and so Mikhail disobeys Ben and shoots the ladies of the Looking Glass.

-they're all dead, it's purgatory, nightmares and trees. haha.

-really though, the rattlesnake ties the story back to the book "Lost Horizon" quite a bit.

andrew.

memphish said...

Andrew, my explanation for the Golden Ticket is that the person who covered up the crash owns Oceanic.

I like the Mikhail idea. Actually I just think Mikhail is a cheerleader - gratuitous Heroes tie in.

Holli

trevor mcfur said...

I agree with those who say that if Jack's comment about his father was because of the drugs, or because he was referring to heaven, that's a cop-out. But I really that than alternate timelines, time travel, and all that jazz.

Someone in the last thread said that maybe it was Michael's coffin. I think that's a really cool theory, and would explain Kate's disgust. I don't think that we can put too much stock into Jack's crying like a bitch ... he's obviously a big drunk drugged-out mess, and might have just been crying because it reminded him about how he needs to get back to the island.

Ralph mentioned, how do they explain the fake crash? We don't know how far into the future those scenes were, so who knows what's happened in between then and the island scenes. Maybe the resue brought the whole thing crashing down ... the Others, Dharma, Mittelos, Widmore, whatever.

Ralph mentioned,

trevor mcfur said...

Oops, sorry for the typos. I'm still a little excited about the episode!

Pablo said...

Question: Where did I hear that after the crash, Oceanic airlines went out of business? I ask because obviously it's not true...

Pablo said...

Sup, Trevor.

Pablo said...

Can i be the first on the blogspot to say Charlie's death was fucking WEAK. I hated it. Anticlimactic and pointless!

memphish said...

Pablo, that Oceanic stuff came from a fake Oceanic website that was run in Season 1 by ABC.

Holli

memphish said...

As for Charlie's death Pablo, you can say that, but I'll be the first to disagree. I thought it was noble and touching though I wasn't as sad about it as I was last week.

Holli

Pablo said...

Noble, yes, Agreed Holli, but it still seemed pointless. Charlie asks Des, "any more flashes?" to wich Des nods "No" - at that moment, Charlie seemed So relieved that they were BOTH going to make it out alive, when Mikhail blows the grenade and the water floods in, Charlie had SO much time to escape and or live. Instead he chose to drown, it just didn't seem necessary. Dont you think?

Pablo said...

Especially since he found out Naomi was lying.

trevor mcfur said...

I think that Charlie's death would have been more powerful if it had come last week. There was so much awesomeness going on last night that it lost it's punch a bit, imo. Plus, we didn't have that whole 'greatest hits' thing that built up the emotion last week.

trevor mcfur said...

I wonder ... did Charlie close the door on Dez because he thought that's what he was supposed to do? Like, if Dez had't told him anything, maybe he would have run out and closed the door, or jumped into the moon pool with Dez to try and escape?

SadAce said...

I mentioned this last night, but do you guys think everyone on the islands backstory could have been slightly changed when Desmond turned the key? Maybe the past was changed for everyone so that once they get off the island, it will be like they were never there in the first place, no crash afterall (or they weren't ever on the plane). Just a thought.

SadAce said...

Jacks dad would thus be alive, and no need for Jack to get on the plane to Australia

Pablo said...

I hope your wrong, sadace, I don't like that theory lol

sorry

Pablo said...

If Dez hadn't mentioned in detail to Charlie the events, Charlie would DEF. not have sacrificed himself

memphish said...

Pablo, I agree and my husband did too that it seemed like Charlie had enough time to thwart Mikhail and try to escape. It also would have been better if he could have explained with more than 3 words what happened with Penny. I think given how fast things were happening and that Charlie had made his peace with his death, that in the heat of battle, this seemed logical to him. Kind of like the hissy fit I threw last night in the heat of the battle of watching LOST.

Holli

Pablo said...

Fair enough, Holli.

why a hissy fit?

memphish said...

Pablo, the hissy fit was related to what I perceived at the time as self-righteous comments from my non-LOST watching spouse.

Holli

Pablo said...

Gotcha

Ally said...

I agree with Pablo. Charlie's death seemed slightly anti-climactic, I guess because we all knew it was coming, and we all figured that he would get out of it towards the end. Which he very well could have.

Gavin412 said...

I think the best way to save charlie would have just to of checked Mikhails pulse, thats the secound time hes 'died' and the secound time people have missed a perfectly good opurtunity to check it.

also the port hole window thing that mikhail smashed seemed pretty big why didnt chalie just try and swim out there to reach the surface?

Pablo said...

Why thank you Ally, good morning

PalmerEldritch said...

the LOSTies really need to learn the old "extra bullet to the forehead" trick. you kill a dude and want to make sure he stays dead? extra bullet in the forehead.

sayid should know that. he's the world's most badass radio repairman.

Ally said...

That little hobbit so could've fit through that window thing. And about Mikhail, I guess Aimee's theory's right, no one is dead on this island until someone shuts their eyes after they die.

Anytime, Pablo.

Pablo said...

I know Gavin, i was like SHOOT HIM IN THE FUCKIN HEAD!

About the hole being big enough swim out of, that's my whole problem with him dying, he could have easily walked out the door and shut it, but he CHOSE to die based on Des' flawed flashes.

Hey guys, here's a theory for ya,

What if last night was a FLASH BACK? the Present day stuff was happening in real time and the ISLAND stuff was the parallel to his current struggle. Flip flop like Ralph and Jonjon said.

Gavin412 said...

They did that to nikki and paulo but that didnt work. (at least that finished them off)

PalmerEldritch said...

it'd certainly make Kate and Jack episodes cooler if they used them to explain how they got to GrizzlyShephard back in LA. maybe the guys whose stories are basically told in the past will have post-island flashbacks while people who still have backstory to tell will stick with pre-island flashbacks.

memphish said...

42 Kablamo!

Holli

Pablo said...

Well I'm off to work people

later

memphish said...

I don't think the Island was flashback because how would Jack know what was happening with Ben's camp, in The Looking Glass and back at the beach. I still don't get if Jack was experiencing these flash forwards on-Island as the characters seem to experience the flashbacks. And TPTB aren't talking. Jack says to Ben in their little pow-wow that he's going to get all of THEM off the Island. Is Jack planning to stay? Was it only a mistake that he left? Him and Kate? Is Jack Adam in the cave?

My facial expression as I type this is the same as my avi's.

Holli

trevor mcfur said...

Holli, I understand your pain with the non-Lost watching spouse. My gave-up-on-Lost-after-season-2 spouse was doing something in the other room, heard me making 'Holy shit' noises during the scene where Jin/Sayid/Bernard were 'shot', and yelled in from that other room, "Oooh, who got shot?"

PalmerEldritch said...

holli, the important thing is that you go the 42 kablamo.

no, the flashbacks are for the benefit of the audience. and it was a flash forward, not a flashback. it's what happens in the future because of Jack's actions.

how freakin' cool was Jack beating the holy hell out of Ben?

Jonathan said...

Did anyone else catch Ben's hand shaking while he was on the walkie with Tom (just like when he was telling Locke about Jacob)? Gawdamn, that Michael Emerson is a great fucking actor.

trevor mcfur said...

Palmer, the Ben beatdown was great. I also loved Danielle's elbow knockout.

Gavin412 said...

i was just on dark ufo and found pic of the newspaper clipping if anybody wants it you can kinda make out the words. http://bp0.blogger.com/_RrObyQ3XzcY/RlUe-1YihSI/AAAAAAAAFkw/ucINFuG1jfo/s1600-h/newspaperclipping2.jpg

memphish said...

How cool was Jack beating the shit out of Ben -- so cool it caused a spousal war in our household. And I love that Kate was "why didn't you just kill him." I guess Jack doesn't have a problem with being a murderer anymore. I'd rather see Rousseau get to take Ben out though.

Holli

memphish said...

Thanks for the link Gavin. I've been checking it out too. So far they say that the newspaper was the real LA Times from April of 2007 with the article added in. It seems to talk about someone from New York committing suicide in a loft in downtown LA. The best people have on the name last I saw was "J(e?)... ... ntham" I don't know who that would be and why someone from New York would have a funeral in Watts or wherever that was. And who made the funeral arrangements? Also, the name of the funeral home anagramed to "Flash Forward."

Holli

Jonathan said...

I completely missed this the first time: when Jack meets the new Chief of Surgery he says "Dr. Shepherd? The hero...twice over." Yet another clue that this was not a flashback.

memphish said...

Jonathan, I thought Dr. Hamill (is his first name Mark?) meant the woman and her kid. I also thought it could mean the flight, but it was certainly ambiguous.

Holli

memphish said...

Naomi asks Jack what he did before he became Moses. If she knows about Drive Shaft's Greatest Hits wouldn't she know about world famous (at least in Italy) spinal surgeon Jack Shephard? And she didn't know that from her time on the beach?

Side note -- Moses was not allowed to enter the Promised Land with the Israelites because of his pride. Take that Jack paralell for what you will.

Any guesses on what Season 4 will be as in Season 3 was The Season of the Others?

My guess - Season 4, The Season of Wolfman Jack

Holli

JonJon said...

I figured that Season 4 will be looking at the history of the island. I think the "bad" people will come on the island, but they won't take the Fight 815'ers off the island. I mean they did set-up the fake plane crash. And I believe that Naomi, knew who everyone was.

PalmerEldritch said...

yeah, Alpert mentioned "The Temple" which sounds like it could have something to do with the Statue of the Four Toes of the Elder Gods or whatnot.

/Cthulu FTW!

memphish said...

Pablo and others, here's Doc Jensen from EW's take on Charlie's death. But remember why Charlie swam down to the Looking Glass in the first place: to fulfill the requirements of Desmond's prophecy of rescue for Claire, baby Aaron, and hopefully the rest of the castaways. For that to happen, Charlie needed to die, per the rules established about Desmond's precognition.

I'd forgotten that Charlie believed he had to die for Claire and Aaron to be saved. That's much more logical, to me, now.

Holli

trevor mcfur said...

There were so many great lines last night. My faves...

Rose: "Jack, if you say 'live together, die alone', I'm going to punch you in the face."

Charlie, on the walkie-talkie: "Tell him Charlie says hi!"

Hurley, also on the walkie-talkie: "Uhhh, Others?"

stephsmith said...

Maybe the new chief of surgery, another actor from Las Vegas BTW, meant Jack was a hero twice for rescuing the woman and her son.
At the time, I was thinking the losties immediately got rescued. But on the rewatch, I think alot more happened betweeen radioing for help and when they got of the island.
Charlie's death hasn't struck me like I thought it would. I don't know if it's because I've already pre-mourned his death or if it's because I think Desmond will go back and change the events. I know Lindeluse said once dead always death but it's just a feeling I've got.
Mikhail had really been hitting the gym. It may be because I adjusted the visual settings on the tv for Heroes(tired of missing so much, everything was too dark) but I see what I was thinking was sores are actually scars. I guess he got bombed in Afghanistan.

trevor mcfur said...

I thought when the chief of surgery said that Jack was a hero twice, he was referring to his surgery on Sarah as the first time. That probably would have gotten him some notoriaty among other doctors.

My happiest moment last night was when patchy put his damn eye patch back on...

stephsmith said...

Kate- "Whay are you taking up for Sawyer?"
Jack- "Because I love you."

That makes no sense.

Now, I can see if Jack was saying "Sawyer isn't letting you go with him because he loves you. That's what I was thinking when I wouldn't let you go on the hunting party." That would make more sense.

Ally said...

yeah that whole "i love you" thing didn't make much sense to me either. and since when is jack kissing juliet?

stephsmith said...

My first impulse was to think the funeral was Michael's, but he wouldn't be buried in Cali, he's from NYC. BTW, Cali looked just like Hawaii in that scene.
Surely Julie Bowen didn't fly 9 months preggers to Hawaii. I bet Foxy flew to her for the ER scene. How pretty was she?
Everyone who thought The Brig was the ending of Sawyer's story arc were wrong.
I missed Rose. So nice to see her again. Bernard, not so much.

trevor mcfur said...

Technically Juliet kissed Jack. And what a sleaze, moving in on Kate as soon as Sawyer and Juliet take off.

Ralph- said...

Last night i kept waking up, only to think about that freaking scene with jack standing at the airport with his beard. i would say what? then try to go back to sleep.

memphish said...

Steph, I hoped Jack was going to say "I'm sticking up for Sawyer because he's my friend and you're treating him badly," but no.

Doc Jensen thinks Jack's kissy-face with Juliet was him earning her trust and keeping an eye on her. That was definitely the most yucky thing that ever happened on the show including arrows in neck, chain-strangled daddies, and Patchy's sewn shut eye.

Here's a tip for those of you who are single out there. When you had 70 days to tell a girl you love her, but you didn't and then you see her have polar bear cage sex and probably hear her having sex on the beach in a tent and then you're on the Bataan death march and you know that your "friend" loves her and your creepy blonde girlfriend just kissed you in front of the girl, not really the best moment to say "I love you" for the first time. Jack is the most relationship challenged person in the history of the world.

Holli

trevor mcfur said...

Holli, I wish that I had known that 5 years ago. Would have saved me a lot of heartache and pain.

Ally said...

Thanks for the tip, Holli.

lol.

MB said...

KABLAMMO

PalmerEldritch said...

Holli, you're a virtual Dear Abby. :p

I think Jack meant "I love you and I want to be happy. Sawyer makes you happy so don't screw it up." But he also meant "I'm a doctor and could have a polar bear cage installed in my bedroom if you're ever single again."

trevor mcfur said...

lol, good one palmer.

MB said...

Anyone else think that Juliet going to the beach was suspicious at all - like she was avoiding going to the tower. Dunno - just occurred to me.
Maybe she thought there was a decent chance that Ben and co. would figure out her betrayal once Pryce and Tom didn't radio back (since they were SUPPOSED to be killed), and Ben or someone might be coming to head them off at the tower. OR she may very well know that there are "Bad people" trying to get to the island, and she may have been suspecting Naomi all along.

MB said...

And Palmer just took the words out of my mouth - I was about to write that, while I joked with my wife that his timing was a WTF moment, he seemed like he was just being honest and saying "I want you to be happy"

PalmerEldritch said...

anyone making it out to ComicCon in San Diego this year? small chance i might coincidentally be in San Diego during the last week of July.

anyone know if it's hell to get a hotel room during that week? what the added congestion of an Army of Dorkness (maybe including me) does to the city?

MB said...

I'm assuming Ben and ralph would be there. They're locals - perhaps they know of what's available nearby?

JonJon said...

MB, I'm so glad I stopped myself from listening to the finally spoilers podcast.

elias said...

Great theory Holli.

Jack tells the world he didn't get on flight 815. Kate has a new identity. At least one other Lostie died off-island.

I like Ralph's flip-flop theory - all the island story will be told in flashback and I'm happy. No more pointless character FBs!

Agree with the majority that Jack was referring to heaven as 'upstairs'.

I loved this episode, and enjoyed it all the more because I had no idea what was coming. I had a feeling Mikhail was not dead and neither were Bernard, Jin and Sayid but I still enjoyed the twists. I hope Rasputin (Mikhail) makes a return, and I'm pretty confident he will.

And they got Gold passes from Oceanic - LOL.

Lovely stuff :)

memphish said...

MB, good question about Juliet and it lets me pour out some Juliet hate. Why did she go back to the beach? I need some Aimee "Juliet only wants to get off this Island" analysis on this one. I have to say I thought she and Sawyer were goners at that point clearing the way for the inevitable Jate.

I'm not buying the I love you as a friend spin. I know no one else likes this idea, and that's okay, I can take it, but I really get the feeling that Dr. Shephard was getting do-overs like Desmond and telling Kate he loved her was planting a seed for the next go-round or for something he knows about the future. Kate if you have this vague notion that I love you next time in a polar bear cage, you'll just say no.

Holli aka Dear Abby
Ironic given the hissy fit I pitched for hubby last night. I can dish it out, but can't take it.

t-dot kim said...

OMG, I have so much to catch with this blogsplosion!!

elias said...

trevor - Hurley on the walkie-talkie: "Uhhh, Others?"

That was my favourite.

I have to say all the 'ship stuff is a bit annoying at this point. Who kissed who and what Jack meant - all that means to me is 3 more seasons of Kate, Jack and Sawyer annoying the hell outta me.

Ally said...

you and me both kim. i haven't even read the first part of the discussion.

PalmerEldritch said...

JAKATWYIET FOR THREE MORE SEASONS!

but after BSG, the Jack/Kate/Sawyer/Juliet stuff isn't so bad.

Jack loves Kate and wants her to be happy, Holli. Kate is happy with Sawyer so Jack is pretending that he wants them to be together.

Of course, Kate isn't really happy with Sawyer because she's secretly in love with Smokey who is in a loveless marraige with Richard Alpert whom is having an affair with the Dharma Bus. Tune in next February for the exciting conclusion!

MB said...

lmao palmer! :)

MB said...

re: Christian Shepard debate. I should say, that though I think the Heavan explanation makes the most SENSE, there is a nagging part of me that says - would they throw a reference in there like that without a bigger meaning - knowing that people are going to pick this episode down to it's cellular structure for the next 8 mos? I dunno. I'm expecting someone to ask them at ComicCon about it.

trevor mcfur said...

I don't buy the heaven explanation. I've never seen Jack as the religious type, or the type to make a reference like that. Of course, he was hepped up on goofballs at the time.

t-dot kim said...

Jack is not a man of faith. I don't think he said "upstairs" as a reference to heaven

MB said...

Also - just generally - I just want to say how awesome the drama was. What a well-written, well-acted episode, I thought Fox threw the shit DOWN. I really liked him here - pussy-crying and all. He sold it for me.
This also made reading the big spoiler a non-issue for me (though I did NOT read all the MF-ing UPDATES they kept doing to it) I was on the edge of my seat regardless. This is why I love this show, I can read all the spoilers and still be GLUED to the TV, because it is (generally) so well written, acted, and produced. THAT is what captures me for an hour each week.

if it sounds like I'm trying to justify my job's existence, I think it's b/c of my slight guilt about what Damon has said to Kristin @E! Online - BUT please
****DO NOT READ GO THE ARTICLE IF YOU DO NOT WANT ANY SPOILERS - IT CONTAINS MINOR ONES****

He talks about how disappointed (and it sounded like a little pissed understandably) that the big spoiler got out there. I hate thinking that I added to Cuseloff's pain :(

MB said...

Kim - I hear ya - he's not a man of Faith in 2004 - but some big shit has obviously happened between 2004 and the flash forward, and when he's talking to Kate he's saying things like "We weren't SUPPOSED to leave". Maybe he's changed - a LOT. I'm not 100% sold on that, but I think it's a definite possibility.

t-dot kim said...

Hurley is my hero. Even with Charlie and Sawyer telling him to F-off in the last 2 episodes... he can see past it all to save the day. I heart Hurley.

I liked almost everything about this episode...Charlie didn't need to lock himself in that communications room, and therefore didn't need to die...and I was completely let down in the last 5 mins of the finale. I wish they (Cuselof) hadn't done that.

memphish said...

MB, Lindeloff needs to get his own people in order instead of taking out the spoiler-rage on Internettica. Someone from his camp had to leak the info.

Holli

elias said...

Respect for owning the spoilers MB - I can go back and listen now.

Personally I enjoy the show much more now I avoid spoilers - Season 2 was ruined for me.

I still think TPTB should put out more foilers from apparently reliable sources to keep spoiler-junkies guessing. There seems to be people out there who pride themselves on being right about what is going to happen on the show so they can say it was predictable.

memphish said...

MB, Jack didn't seem to be a man who'd found religion in that flash.

There's mention of the Triangle in that Damon interview with Kristen too. It looks like it will never die. These people need to go on Dr. Phil.

Holli

samoasanend said...

Ben is the one in the casket for 3 reasons...

1) As soo as Jack finds out he goes to try and kill himself. This is because Ben is the only one with enough info to get back to the island.

2) Jack tells the man at the funeral that he neither a friend nor family of the deceased.

3) Kate looks disgusted when Jack asks why she didnt go to the funeral.

4) No friends or family showed up either.

5) The popular theory about the name on the news clipping is that it says Jeremy Bentham a name Ben would very possibly like to assume upon returning to the states. Bentham was a child prodigy who grew up to be an early advocate of utilitarianism. Influences of Jeremy Bentham include John Locke and David Hume. Jeremy Bentham also was the inventor of the Panopticon - a prison that would allow an observer to observe all prisoners without the prisoners being able to tell if they are being observed or not, thus conveying a "sentiment of an invisible omniscience." This ties in to several elements of his role on the island as well as his desire to allow his people to think they could leave at any time, not knowing they were his prisoners.

xo
Jonah

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Bentham

memphish said...

Jonah, I like it a lot. Another reason is how small the casket was.

Holli

elias said...

but Jack did say he wanted to kill Ben when he left the island and I believe Island Jack. Crazy Beard Jack - not so much ;)

samoasanend said...

Im not saying Jack killed Ben off the island... As soon as Ben got back to mainland his cancer could have came back 10 fold.

xo
Jonah

t-dot kim said...

OMG, I forgot to mention....

SAYID IS THE MAN!

Ralph- said...

maybe jack feels all depressed cause his jizz count has lowered conciderably since he "came" back from the island.

Pablo said...

All this talk of jizz counts is making my lunch not so tasty

samoasanend said...

thats weird for some reason its making mine better...

stephsmith said...

I believe the talk of Christian Shephard was just a figure of speech.
Morgan's theory is Mr Widmore sent Naomi.
Why does Jack need to go back? Maybe a few made it off the island but Jack still feels the need to go back and fix things.
Who will be Claire's Baby-daddy now?

trevor mcfur said...

Good call Kim. Sayid could kick Chuck Norris' ass. The best part of that scene was, he didn't even have to kill that dude with his feet; the situation was already under control, and Sawyer standing there with the gun could have done it. Sayid used his feet because he's just that much of a bad ass.

It was also great when he spit in Ryan's face.

Pablo said...

Ally and I have talked it over, and Hurley is definitely gonna be Claire's new man. Curly, Haire, or Curly Haire, wichever iteration you take a liking to. So shall it be!

t-dot kim said...

I'm worried about Sawyer.

Jordan from the 206 said...

Hey Kim, When you said that you wish the last 5 minutes didn't happen, are you talking about the "Jack/Kate, holy crap this is the future!" stuff or the stuff with Charlie dying? Before you said that, you were talking about Charlie not needing to die. Which btw, I think Charlie chose to die because he thought that if he didn't, it would screw up the events leading to the rescue.

I can somewhat understand if you are saying that you wish the future stuff didn't happen. I mean, I thought it was a cool twist and for "this" episode on it's own, it was awesome. But for the future of Lost, I dunno. Is that the end? Or is it where we are going to take off from? I have a bit of a prob if it's the end and the show is going to fill in the gaps between now and then. Because it would be a bit anticlimatic and everything that happens, we sorta know what the inevitable is. But I'm not totally bumming. I thought last night's ep was so intense. From start to finish I was on the edge of my seat. That very well may have been the best ep ever.

memphish said...

I vote for Curly Haire. Hurley was taking care of Aaron last night, and he's the only one on the Island with a car. Ladies dig the cars.

Holli

Jordan from the 206 said...

Yes, Sayid is the man. I jumped off my couch for that entire scene. How bad ass was Hurley, Sawyer, and Sayid?! Even Juliet helped. When Sayid snapped the dudes neck, I instantly thought of Kim freaking out. lol.

memphish said...

Kablammo!

Holli

Pablo said...

Especially cars with Pryce's blood all over the grill. Sexyyyyyyyyyy

Jordan from the 206 said...

One other thing. Women of blogspotica, what the hell is it going to take for you guys to get off Juliet's back? Geez. In this episode we flat out see Ben and the others pissed that Juliet double crossed them. Her helping the Lostaways led to the death of 10 others! Yet all the girls are still all, "I don't trust her. What's she doing going back to the beach?" Come on. I think that ship has clearly sailed. To me it was quite apparent that she was going back to redeem herself and prove that she is with them. Add to that the fact that she knew that Jack wasn't going to let Sawyer go back to the beach without guns. She knew that she had to do that for there to be any attempt at a rescue. One could argue that without Juliet lying to Jack, the rescue how it played out, might have never happened. And Sayid, Jin, Bernard, and possibly an all alone Sawyer could very easily have died.

Jellymanianos said...

Honestly, could not be arsed reading all the posts - just skimmed, but here's my bit, if you've already mentioned these, well, at least i don't do a podcast called Lost Boys.

Person who's funeral it was, was a man. He was from New York. He was found in Grand Avenue. First name starts with Jo... last name is ..antham. There's a sweet screen grab at losteastereggs.
Plus a wicked shot of the funeral home - Hoffs/Drawler - anagram of Flash Forward, i fucking love that!

Cool episode - it's like they had that up their sleeve the whole time.

trevor mcfur said...

Claire + Hurley could be called Charley. But that's just cruel.

And I don't think that the Jack/Kate scene is the end of the show. They may get there at some point, but it definitely plays like a scene in a story that has a lot more to be told. I like Ralph's idea that the series starts there next year, and we flash back to what happened on the island after the phone call.

Pablo said...

Jordan, your right. Although I admit this episode implicated juliet as much as it proved her innocent, I'm no closer or farther to making my mind up on her. You just helped though, points for Juliet.

Pablo said...

"Claire + Hurley could be called Charley. But that's just cruel."

Man that was as hurtful as it was funny.

elias said...

LOL Tim. I love Lost anagrams.

Steph - Claire's Baby-daddy is gonna be Hurley and he's earned it. I prefer Curly because Haire is just too weird sounding.

Elias
SuckMyDick Podcast

Jellymanianos said...

One last thing before i take my hungover body to bed:
I bet the car that crashed behind Jack's lacklustre suicide attempt was a gold pontiac bonneville and the van that hit her was a VW.
night night

memphish said...

Jordan, I don't like cats and I don't like Juliet who has very cat-like eyes. I'm not going to drop it, but don't you drop your side either. Ironically, she's probably the character I'm most like which could mean I don't like myself and I need Dr. Phil.

I also don't believe in karma which I forgot was the reason she told Sawyer she was going back. I really wanted it to be the case that she was hooking back up at the beach with the "Let's Overthrow Ben" Others. Of course, they didn't really live long enough for us to learn about that.

The rapidly shifting alliances of all these people doesn't compute with my concepts of friendship and loyalty. I guess it's more like Survivor than I realize sometimes.

Back in Season 1, I felt like I could relate to these characters, find myself in some of them. Not so much these days. I think the sickness has them all. BTW, What happened to the sickness?

Holli

Jellymanianos said...

...oh, and my Stealth Operative Name is Omega Death.

Jordan from the 206 said...

Pablo, how did this episode implicate Juliet in any way? Other than her as usual mysterious demeanor, I can't think of anything. We don't know for certain. But it's pretty safe to assume now that last episode when she said that the looking glass was floded, that she was telling the truth as far as she knew it. Because this episode showed us that Ben lied to EVERYBODY about it besides the two girls who were down there. That was as far as I remember the last time there was reason to question Juliet.

Jordan from the 206 said...

lmao Elias. I am going to have to check out your podcast.

Jordan
I Just Took the Biggest Dump Podcast

memphish said...

John Locke -- what is up with his squiggly, squiggly legs? They don't work so he's going to kill himself and then the Island gives him his faith back again in the form of a young boy who shouldn't be on the Island and whose advice Locke ignored in the past.

Did Walt give him a hand out of the pit? It was pretty deep. Did Walt tell him to go to the Tower and how to get there? And why was Locke willing to throw a knife into a perfect stranger, but not shoot the phone at least. He shouldn't have been able to walk then it seems to me.

Holli

elias said...

Holli - TPTB did promise we would see what happened to Danielle, Montand and the sickness.

I'm still not sure what the format will be in Season 4 - Present/ Island FBs, Island/ Flash-forwards, or FBs/ Island/ Flash-forwards.

My only prediction is that Desmond andSawyer will be naked again. Together.

Pablo said...

Good points on Locke, Holli

Jordan, Juliet was making some really vile faces at times when they seemed to be innapropriate. I don't remember the scene verbatim, but I believe it involved the Losties & ben, someone (probably Ben) said something awful to jack and they explicitly showed Juliet with a sick smirk on her face. Other than that, and a couple of other faces i caught, you're right, it does prove she's one of us.

memphish said...

I think we're definitely going to get traditional flashbacks still. There are things left to learn like Danielle's story. I was really surprised her team was all dead before Alex's birth. There's also Desmond's army days and what he did to end up in The Brig. There's the story of Ben's Annie. There's Alpert and where the heck that non-aging guy got all that eyeliner.

Holli

trevor mcfur said...

Holli, I bet "What happened to Locke after he met Walt in the pit" is probably the subject of a future flashback. What I want to know is, why did he wuss out at the end? He's gonna have to face one very po'ed smoke monster. Or why didn't he just say, "Jack, give me 10 seconds to explain why"? But that's a pebble of a quibble in an ocean of awesomeness.

memphish said...

Yeah Trevor, it seems to me that if Ben, Locke, someone would just say to Jack, hey, the reason we really want you to stay is whatever the heck it is, that the man might just listen to reason, especially if it offered an opportunity to cry.

Holli

MB said...

Jordan,
Just so no one gets falsely accused here - I think I was the one who asked if maybe Juliet's beach trek was suspicious. I'm actually with you for the most part on thinking that Juliet is not a total dbl-crossing beyotch - but I think if you want to do a full analysis of a show like this, you've got to put all the ideas out there, and as I thought about it, there is logic to it. So I guess my point is that my thought did not come from a place of Juliet-hate.

elias said...

It'll be hard to keep the show dramatically satisfying when we know Jack and Kate leave the island at some point, unless they continue where they left off and flashback to the island. The other way to do it is have Desmond change the future we saw.

Juliet is kosher. She's a Lostie now even though you could tell she was apalled by Sawyer's ruthlessness.

Jordan from the 206 said...

It's cool mb. I don't care. Everybody is up for 2nd guessing. It's just that some of our girls loathe Juliet to such a level that it doesn't matter what the chick does. I find it humorous.

elias said...

appalled/ apauled/ ? I can't spell

Jordan from the 206 said...

Exactly Elias. That's what I was getting at earlier. I really hope that the Jack/Kate scene wasn't the inevitable ending. IMO, it would REALLY hurt the show. It would belittle everything that happens that is perceived to be leading up to it.

memphish said...

I agree with your analysis Jordan. My Juliet hate has moved into the irrational mode. It's how I roll. ;D

Holli

trevor mcfur said...

I don't agree that if last night was the end, that the show would go downhill. Lots of good books, movies, etc, begin at the end of the story. Not sure if I've ever seen it on TV, but I have faith that they could make it work.

Jordan from the 206 said...

I thought it was interesting how the writers chose Tom to be the one who wanted to kill Sayid/Jin/Bernard instead of Pryce. At the time it seemed out of character. But looking back now, it all makes sense. If he hadn't said that, we wouldn't have approved as much when Sawyer capped his ass. But since it was just reaffirmed to us that Tom isn't mr. cuddly, it was somewhat ok. Btw, I love Sawyer's, "I didn't believe him" line. That was bad ass. Bout damn time somebody on this island didn't take the damn others for face value!

MB said...

re: Jack and Kate's bleak future. I have to think they are going to progress the future story at SOME point (though we may wait for 2 frakking years!)

Pablo said...

I honestly believe that what we saw is not the ending of the show. It may be like, a make or break point in the future, but no way does it seem like an ending. Too much seemed unfinished. my 2 cents

elias said...

lovely stuff Holli - you don't need to explain your beef with Jules.

I don't like Jack, even if he's now bearded and listens to Nirvana.

Jordan from the 206 said...

Thanks Holli. I am glad you are able to admit it. lol. It makes it ok now in my eyes. You can continue to hate her all you want. I give you my blessing. hahaha. Just don't question me when I go off about how much I don't trust Aaron. Cuz something's up with that one.

PalmerEldritch said...

i hope that people with interesting backstories (Desmond, Hurley, etc) continue having flashbacks but people with well fleshed out backstories (Kate, Jack, Locke, Claire, etc) have interesting flashforwards or on-Island flashbacks. that would be cool and the best of both worlds.

elias said...

Jordan: 'I love Sawyer's, "I didn't believe him" line. That was bad ass.'

That's my 2nd favourite. An absolute peach.

Jordan from the 206 said...

Ah, yes! Jack listening to Nirvana in his truck! That was something that threw me off a bit timewise. My initial reaction was, "Jack used to listen to Nirvana!" But as a person who lives in Seattle, I guess it's pretty foolish to think that Nirvana isn't still played on the radio.

Pablo said...

Alchi/pill junkie/nirvana blasting jack is my hero. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT I'VE BEEN THROUGH!!!

loved the self pity. "don't you pity me!"

mr walking contradiction

memphish said...

I just remembered there's a book cited in that piece of crap Bad Twin some old mystery where the mystery is supposedly solved halfway through the book only to have the entire thing be undone and resolved, more brilliantly at the end. The hero of Bad Twin's mentor mentions it to him and his girlfriend is reading it on a plane. I'm guessing that type of thing is what TPTB will be going for now that we've seen one "answer."

Holli

trevor mcfur said...

mb & Pablo--

I agree with both of you; it didn't feel like 'the end' to me either. Maybe the beginning of the end?

I kind of enjoy other bloggers' irrational hatred. Like I enjoy Aimee's irrational hatred of Danielle ... my favorite moment of TLI this week was this Aimee quote, "Fucking Rousseau. Mother fucker".

Pablo said...

They still play Nirvana here in LA everyday, Jordan

Pablo said...

Holli, wasn't it Turn of The Screw?

I'm starting to think we're gonna be watching 3 timelines at once, flashbacks/island/flashforwards

Pablo said...

Begining of the end sounds good,

Trevor i was fuckin dying @ that too lmao

Jordan from the 206 said...

Ok, I have no idea what TPTB is. And it seems like I should already know. Any help?

memphish said...

No Pablo, the Swan Orientation film was behind Turn of the Screw. It was something I'd never heard of. I read it last summer and your run of the mill Agatha Christie is better IMHO.

Holli

Pablo said...

the powers that be

memphish said...

Doesn't Ben say something like if you make this call the end will start, begin, something?

Jordan, TPTB are The Power That Be, in this case Cuseloff.

Holli

Pablo said...

Oh ok. I know what part in the book your referencing to, coulda sworn it was TOTS

memphish said...

I'd look up the book, but Lostpedia is down and it's not in the Wikipedia entry.

Where's our resident book expert when you need her? Starbucks I'm betting.

Holli

Pablo said...

Lostpedia is working for me, still didn't find it tho. I have Bad Twin in my hands now but DAMN if I know exactly where to look.

memphish said...

Look for where the hero is flying to Australia. The girl is reading it.

Holli

Jordan from the 206 said...

Thanks Holli. I should have known that. I figured you guys were talking about Cuselof.

memphish said...

Pablo, It's Trent's Last Case.

Holli

Pablo said...

Nice, good work Holli.

memphish said...

Here's the wiki entry for Trent's Last Case. The old guy in Bad Twin, the hero's dog partner says it's the greatest mystery ever written or some such rot.

Holli

Jordan from the 206 said...

As for our book expert. Didn't you read yesterday? She has become the Jack Bauer of Little Rock. Fighting crime and difusing bombs. I think her tv show is going to be called 8. Because we all know that she doesn't work 24 hour days.

Jordan from the 206 said...

Hey Holli, What's the reason for the Kate pic? Is it just the funny face?

memphish said...

Jordan, It's because the expression on her face is the same as the one on mine everytime I think about LOST.

Holli

P.S. I hate Juliet.

Pablo said...

I love Juliet

*balancing the scales* especially those puckers lips. awwwwwww

Jordan from the 206 said...

Really interesting interview with Lindelof by Kristin @ E.


Not sure if it's been posted or not. Nothing spoilerly. DL does sorta answer some things and also talks about why they killed off Charlie.

Among the more interesting questions:

Lost stays on Wednesday nights.
Is there an I Don't Know category?

The finale's twist, the flash forward, is something that you'd planned all along, from the very beginning.
Oh, absolutely.

The show will flash forward and flash back from this point onward.
Hell no, I won't tell you.

The role of Jacob has been cast.
False.

False? Okay, interesting. People were having all sorts of interpretations of what he looked like.
You do see a guy, but...I'm still sticking to my false.

Alex is actually Ben's biological daughter.
False.

memphish said...

Why is future Jack such a basket case and trying to get back to the Island? Is it because not everyone was rescued? If that's the case, why doesn't he have governments looking instead of his "awesome" plan to hope he crashes there again on a jumbo jet or plan B, trying to be Magellan while bombed out of your gourd?

I can't see Island Jack willingly leaving people who want off the Island on the Island. I think maybe whoever is coming for them will use tear gas or something else to subdue the radio tower people and remove them from the Island and leave those stuck on the beach and at the Temple?!? still there. And now the hero has to fix it. I don't know. Jack needs help. Poor Jack. It's all that Just For Men Beard Coloring; it's poisoning him.

Holli

Pablo said...

"It's all that Just For Men Beard Coloring; it's poisoning him."

Holli you are cracking me up today

Jordan from the 206 said...

Holli, maybe Ben was right and Jack radioing those people does lead to killing most of Jack's people. It would make sense as to why Jack is so messed up.

Well, I'm off to a late lunch. Catch up with y'all in a bit.

stephsmith said...

You ALL are cracking me up. Tears, you hear me? Tears.

elias said...

Hobbit down!

Bonnie was great - the first out and out bitch on Lost.

I'm lamenting the death of Naomi, who was creeping up my list of island totty. 2 Brits killed in one episode. To me that counts as a massacre.

elias said...

Juliet confirmed that the Others were building a runway and aliens are coming to the island ;)

Malcolm said...

i dont know if anyone has said this yet, but jack says forgive me before killing himself. what is it so bad that he did? i assume that he did something bad to get off the island, or something bad to the person in the newspaper. do you guys think the suicide was planned for some time now, or spontaneous after he read the newspaper?

Pablo said...

"2 Brits killed in one episode. To me that counts as a massacre."

that killed me.

and yes, Naomi was creeping up my list too...

elias said...

malcolm - the LA Times article pushed him over the edge. He was in a bad way already, flying on his Gold Pass waiting for the plane to crash. Interesting that he feels responsible for whoever's death it was.

Pablo - you know what I'm talking about. beautiful British women don't just fall out of the sky ;)

Brennan said...

I don't know if this has been posted due to the fact I haven't had the chance to catch up, but I just was looking at the top 100 podcasts on Itunes. The Dharmalars are at 21. That is overall podcasts, not just a sub category like "TV and Film". Amazing, and great job.

Also Jay and Jack are at 42. Kablamo

trevor mcfur said...

I normally love the British lasses, but I gotta admit, Naomi didn't do much for me. I thought that she looked a bit like one of the sisters of Duras from Star Trek: TNG. I'll miss Bonnie and Gretta, though.

elias said...

From DarkUFO:

Thanks to Patrick who works at the LA Times for the following email./

"When I came into work this morning, people were trying to figure out why a news story from April 5 had suddenly appeared in the Most Viewed stories list on our website. I don't think people quite believed me when I explained it to them."

Wesh said...

ok yall have probably watched the finale a million times, but i just finished it and OMG!
That's it, that's all I have for now: OMG! OMFG, if only adults are reading this :)

No seriously awesome finale! Not what I had expected, but maybe exactly because of that: awesome!

* there's more the christian sheppard's death, i'm not with the crew saying Jack was just fucking stoned :) He was stoned, but I'd like to see a storyline come out of all those mentionings.

* I don't care Walt looks like he could have kids. I mean the actors are still humans and they age. He did well.

* Hurley ruled! :)
* I supported Sawyer killing Tom, although i did feel sorry for him. I was a bit torn, but still I felt it was the right thing to do. "I didn't believe him" either :)

* Charlie had a nice death scene. Cryable. It did seem unecesairy, but u know, he thought it was what needed to happen.

* Locke and Ben have to be still on the island; they're unseperatable.

Conclusion: liked these final episodes alot! season 4 can't come too soon! And the music was superb. Jimmeeeeeeeeeeh! ^___-

Wesh said...

oh yeah, who wrote and who directed this season's finale?

off to sleep now.
greetz

Wesh said...

final "oh yeah": it totally suckx that the finale got completely spoiled. I wouldn't've been able to enjoy these final eps if i had been spoiled like that.
The horror.
MB, I don't know how you do your job (and u do it so well). Big props!

Jordan from the 206 said...

Is it safe to assume that Bonnie and Greta went down to the looking glass around the time of the hatch implosion? Because didn't Mikail say that communication off the island stopped after that? Seems as if Ben conveniently used that as an excuse to send the girls down and jam the signals. Mikail obviously knew the 2 girls, so they couldn't have been down there long. And he also said something like, "I thought you guys were sent off the island?" Also, the girls knew who the lostaways were as they referred to Charlie as "one of them". If this is all true, did Ben have a reason for doing this other than him just wanting to cut off ties to the outside world? Did he know something about Naomi's people? The questions on this show never end!

Jordan from the 206 said...

Tv.com has a live lost chat going on right now. I have no idea what it is, but i'm bored so i'm gonna check it out.

Jordan from the 206 said...

...and it sucked.

No surprise. I'm spoiled with the Lost talk at this place. I've said it before, and I will say it again. All other lost forums drive me made with how nerdy and obsessive they are. Not that people here aren't obsessive, but at least we have a sense of humor. The average age of poster of a board seems to dictate a good deal as well.

Pablo said...

lol @.......and it sucked. sorry

I don't even think I'd have enough time for another forum, this place is busy enough for me.

Wesh said...

this prolly has been mentioned, still nice stuff:
Hoffs/Drawlar = anagram for Flash Forward. ^__^

Jordan from the 206 said...

This is the worst part of the day for me. I'm counting down the minutes til I am off work and the 'spot is always dead around now. All those right-siders eating dinner or whatever.

Pablo said...

lol I know, it's dead and apparently they are the life of the party.

Pablo said...

The anagram had been posted previously, wesh.

Jordan from the 206 said...

Seriously Pablo. Holli & Steph along with the mistresses of TLI are the ones who weild the power at this place.

Ghostwatch The Great said...

To be honest, Lost finales have always left me a little cold and this is no exception. Charlie obviously trusts Des's flashabouts enough to know that he had to die, no matter what new information he had.

Although it's lucky that he played Good Vibrations exactly the same way as "the musician" including all the grace notes. Especially since he's a guitarist. I don't know what'll happen to his guitar but I know it will never die (that'll be the subject of a future TLI call).

Island jack is beginning to get grey in the stubble, yet three years later and in a bombed out unkempt portion of his life, he has a beard so thick and dubious it's almost as if he stuck a load of wool unconvincingly to his face.

Jack's so high he forget's his father's dead? Clearly not Ka-Blamo.

Perhaps too much info about Johnny Ghostwatch but I've managed to get fairly slaughtered in the time since my own father died and I've never once forgotten that he went and did it. And I'm pretty sure I will never manage to get that fucked.

There's more to come from Christian.

Pablo said...

Agreed Jordan, i'll add in Mb, Palmer, Trevor & Elias.

Pablo said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Pablo said...

I love Christian Shephard, definitely wanna see more of him.

memphish said...

If you get bored later tonight or during the hiatus, spam this guy.

Holli

Jordan from the 206 said...

Ghostwatch, The Charlie playing Good Vibrations thing bothered me too. I mean, most of us have played songs with our telephone key pads, right? You gotta mess around at least a little bit to figure out the tone of each button. But Charlie just instantly knew. Oh well. I guess it's not a huge deal. But I was a bit miffed nonetheless.

Chan said...

jordan, they most likely filmed that but it got cut out in post. There were some other things that I saw were cut very hastily.

trevor mcfur said...

Nice link Holli. There's one in every crowd, I suppose. He's already getting killed since it's pretty obvious that he didn't even understand what the hell was going on!

trevor mcfur said...

New thread, btw.

JonJon said...

We will make this 200!

JonJon said...

I like jellybeans!

JonJon said...

Hooray, now this thread is at 200