Tuesday, February 09, 2010

What Kate Does: post episode discussion

120 comments:

andrew. said...

POISON!

memphish said...

Is that the theme for the podcast?

Holli

t-dot kim said...

THE SICKNESS?? CLAIRE?? ROUSSEAU?? DR ETHAN GOODSPEED??

My head is spinning.

memphish said...

Overall this episode felt like a mid-season Kate episode. I liked the on Island stuff; I still can't find a reason to care about the X universe stuff. Claire's wig is so shit it's hard to look at anything else.

I did like the reveal that Claire is apparently a Robert and rest of Danielle's crew type zombie, but one's that turned into Danielle. Awesome trap Claire. Way to go! I don't really understand why a zombie has to go around setting traps though.

Can we please move past the James loves Juliet stuff? It's sweet, but ultimately meaningless except for increasing my loathing for Kate and Jack who have failed to love each other in any way, shape or form mimicking a mature relationship.

So will they kill Sayid next week? Maybe Danielle should have taken him out way back in S1.

Holli

JoeSC said...

I knew they had to be trying to kill Sayid with that pill. I just couldn't believe that him "wanting" to take the pill had anything to do with it's effectiveness.

...and Claire. WTF? The whole scene with Ethan was downright creepy.

And are we supposed to take that as confirmation that Claire did die in Season 4 and was "claimed" or can he claim live souls as well?

Does that also confirm that Christian is on Smokey's side?

And does that mean Rousseau was also "claimed"?

Oh, and Aldo! Awesome return, but I don't think they're going to keep any old characters around for long when they're reintroduced.

Another solid does of mindfuckery!

Kate still sucks, mostly.

t-dot kim said...

What happened to Claire, is what Sayid is going through? Is it the same thing that The French Crew went through as well?

memphish said...

If the pill was just poison why did Jack have to give it to Sayid? Just have Aldo do it. He doesn't have a problem with killing.

Oh, and way to go Claire finding the old polar bear trap.

I was disappointed that Claire had a Shamu rather than a stuffed polar bear in her bag for the Baaaaayyyy-beeeeeeeeee.

Holli

JoeSC said...

Kim, I gotta believe that's the connection we're supposed to make here. I had a lot of different theories on Claire, but turning into Rouseeau-lite never entered my peripheral. I'm REALLY interested to see where they take this.

This may have been a Kate-centric episode, but her story just seems like an afterthought right now.

memphish said...

The off Island stuff is crap in my opinion. I wasn't happy with it last week, and I'm less happy with it now. Other than Kate now having deja vu when she sees Jack I don't care.

It did leave me with one big question. Presumably Ethan and Amy left on the sub pre-Incident, so we get Dr. Goodspeed in LA, but if that's true, how did Ethan, but not Miles end up back on the Island in timeline A?

Also, the Charles Barkley Taco Bell ad is one of the worst ads in the history of TV.

Holli

andrew. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Stephanie said...

Charles Barkley in anything is bad news.

This episode left me feeling jerked around. Sayid was saved only for the Others to want to kill him again. Jeez. Give me a break.

Kate had deja vu when Claire called the baby Aaron. Whoopty do. My high hopes for the final season have been dashed. I really had my fingers crossed for more wtf's.
Oh yeah! The vampire that tried to kill Buffy when she turned 18 was the guy that cut the hand cuffs. He was also in X Files as a chopper pilot that took Mulder and Scully to a remote lab somewhere cold and got infected with an alien.

memphish said...

I totally wanted Kate's cab to splat Arzt. It only seemed fitting. I hope she at least killed his spiders or something in his bag.

On another blog I saw the Island Claire called Clusseau. I love it.

Holi

andrew. said...

- that pill, that pill is... Poi-son! (official request for a little BBD on the TLI playlist)

- i liked creepy stoner Claire, not sure i'm ready for Littleton.

- Kate made a Jack face when Claire screamed out Aaron. Is Kate-X having a little deja vu as well?

- So when Ben was king-shit of the Others, do you think he got to tell Dogan what to do? i see those meetings going about as well as Ben & Alpert powows.

- It was fun getting to see Aldo get slapped around again. Mac should have totally showed off his karate moves & yes, Charlie would have made an amazing addition to the cast.

- i don't want to see Arzt again unless he's getting blown up.

- Claire making up for a few seasons worth of screaming 'mah baybeee' within 10 seconds.

andrew. said...

Dogen? or Dodongo

Holder said...

Apparently the island has a Jared?

memphish said...

Or a gumball machine.

Holli

Stephanie said...

I have yet to get this Lost themed Coverville onto my iPod.

PalmerEldritch said...

good stuff.

Alt-Universe will probably factor into the rest of the story at some point. Especially since they're bothering to show us the Alt-Universe. This isn't Heroes, don't worry. The Alt-Universe will play out for a bit and then make narrative sense.

Glad to have Claire back. And Alt-Claire. I dont like the idea of Claire and Rousseau being "infected" and that's why they're bonkers. I like the idea of them being alone on the Island for years at a time and going bonkers.

Good to see Aldo again.

I dont mind Sawyer being mopey cuz Juliet was killed. Cant blame him. But Kate following him around is REALLY annoying. Wait til Juliet's body is cold before you try to hump her boyfriend. Yeesh!

Dogen (sp?!) is pretty badass. Not sure what's up with Sayid but i think those Others are mistaken. or will save him.

alt-claire is an idiot for taking a ride with the crazy lady who almost shot her.

no update on Alt-Jin and Alt-Sun. oh man. was looking forward to that.

now, what purpose will the alt-universe serve? methinks that we'll get some people from the Altiverse into our timeline at some point. not sure who though. maybe alt-locke? or just alt-locke's body? maybe they'll send a message to the regular-verse?

Kyle from Kentucky said...

I agree with memphish about the off island stuff and the Juliet,skate,jate stuff

Gotama said...

Zombie season? Really? I hope not.

What would the pill do that a gun couldn't?

Why would Jacob send Sayid to the temple to be "saved"? Wouldn't he realize Sayid would only be corrupted? Or was he thinking so far ahead that he knew Sayid had to be saved in order to be killed again in order to be saved again

Gay episode

Run Kate Run right off a cliff

memphish said...

The TLI prediction that this episode will win worst episode of Season 6 is looking pretty solid right now. Maybe a Rose and Bernie side-flash will knock it off the podium.

Holli

Gotama said...

Nevermind, I think I just figured out the pill thing. Suicide must be the only thing that can kill the undead

memphish said...

The fact that Damon Lindeloff feels the need to rebut the filler callers on Twitter speaks volumes re this episode.

As for the X-verse. I'm sure they're going to tie them together, I'm just not sure I'm buying it. I care about what happens to people thrust into the unusual situation of crashing on a mysterious Island, not about the lives of the 300 people I fly with on any given day. That's why God gave us iPods, to avoid the 2 other people we're sitting with on the plane.

Holli

Holder said...

On killing Jin...

(Jason...I think) "Aldo, we can't, he's one of them."
(Aldo) "He MAY be one of them"

Wonder what this means?

On another note, I really liked Jack in this episode.

Holder said...

Holli...are we sure that is actually Damon? If you search for Damon Lindelof, there is one page that has been verified and one that hasn't. You might have more insight than me though...just didn't want you getting some fake tweets.

Tha Kid said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Tha Kid said...

Haven't read other people's posts yet, will tomorrow morning just wanna post reaction comments.

1. I kept thinking Claire and Kate should get married and raise Aaron together.

2. Did anyone else recognize BLT from Degrassi Jr. High?

Good episode overall. I actually care to see what happens to Kate and Claire after Kate leaves. I assume Kate feels obligated to pay Claire back for the money she charges on Claire's credit card.

Didn't really see anything to theorize about. I had a theory that Claire went crazy like Russo and she had set the traps, but that was basically confirmed at the end of the episode.

I was really pissed when they shot BLT. I hope he's not dead, but he most likely is.

t-dot kim said...

Kid!!! OF COURSE I SPOTTED BLT!

I didn't think anyone would know what I was talking about--except Alirio.

scrdmnkydst said...

Island Kate is a cunt.

Flash-Sideways Kate, less so, for now.

OMG sickness.

Aldo is a douche.

Jack is a douche also.

Dogen and Lennon > Lennon & McCartney.

I am going to cry when Sun and Jin reunite.

LOLFUCK at Ethan being the baby doctor.

I've never been so excited to see Claire since she turned up drunk in the Cabin with Ghost Christian.

Lost is amazing.

memphish said...

Holder, thanks for the Twitter reminder. Best I can tell both Damon accounts are now Damon though I'm not sure I found a definitive answer on that.

Holli

Obsidianrock said...

Put me down as another Degrassi fan.

Is it too cruel to ask for Smokey to kill off both Sawyer and Kate? They're really getting hard to stomach.

It's nice to finally see Jack make a stand and ask for some answers. It only took him until the last season.

PalmerEldritch said...

i enjoyed jack stepping up a bit and being a dick to Dōgen about the suicide pill.

so, is Sayid really sick? is he sick as in infected like Montand? doesnt seem like they suspect him of being a Fake-Sayid.

memphish said...

I like this recap because it deals with the important issue of hair.

Holli

Stephanie said...

I'm so glad Lindeluse is on twitter so I can share my feelings directly.

Kyle from Kentucky said...

haha yes it was boring. but what Aldo did was even worse.

Stephanie said...

Aldo is a hottie!

Fleudiddy said...

Why did Claire look like Rousseau??
Why did Kate cry when Sawyer said he was gonna ask Juliet to marry her?
Was Rousseau the one with the sickness?
Hurley is the leader??
Best line of the episode by Aldo, "Ever been around the forest and see a black smoke that goes ticka ticka ticka when it's pissed off?" Gotta love Lost.

mb said...

This episode was definitely a come down from last week, but it had some good elements. It totally flew by for me though - it felt short (TWSS)

I agree with Palmer that the alt-timeline is set to merge with the island one somehow.

Completely didn't think of the sickness (duh). This would make sense. Also hadn't thought of the idea that Claire has the sickness. So, assuming for a moment that Christian is MiB, did he give Claire the sickness (as well as the French team)? What I mean is - does the sickness COME from MiB? or does he have anything to do with people getting "sick"?

RE: Dogen saying that Sayid has to die, and Jack basically rejecting it and saying there is hope was a big Return of the Jedi shoutout IMO (i.e. Jack is Luke saying "there is still good in him")

Annoyed with Kate running and ditching Jin (we were rolling our eyes), but the the scenes with Sawyer made Kate's narrative in this ep better - i.e. she ran away from Jack (surprise surprise) again but Sawyer wasn't interested in following her anymore. so I'm hoping she realized she might want to STOP RUNNING GODDAMMIT! I'm hoping that she finds Claire and remembers that she wasn't an irresponsible commitment-phobe for a while (w/Aaron) and that that will make her character better going into the final stretch here.

Holder - good observation on that "He MAY be one of them" comment. Got my brain wheels turning.

Hurley asking Sayid if he is a zombie gave me a chuckle - nice shout out to "the Zombie season"

Suicide must be the only thing that can kill the undead

I like this point a lot - however, Rousseau was able to kill her party.


Seeing Mac (Aldo) on the island made me think about a Lost/Sunny parody. I would like that lots :D I want to see a scene where Dennis, Mac, Charlie, Dee and Frank meet the Temple others and Dennis, Mac and Charlie have a verbal go around w/Dogen and Lennon while Frank wanders off and they find him skinny dipping in the healing pool.

Ralph- said...

My theory is that the off island stuff is Season 7 and has yet to happen on Jack and Kate's "timeline". they were placed on that plane in 2004 right at the moment this whole thing started. That is why jack had a sense of deja vu and looked at himself in the mirror so long and noticed he was older. Kate started to get some of her memory back when she heard the name Aaron.

Kelly Jo said...

I really liked the episode but I totally called Claire as the new Rousseau. But hopefully now we know why her greif for Charlie was so short.

mb said...

Ralph - so you're saying the on-island Losties go thru Season 6, and some shit goes down later this season (maybe the finale) which ends in some kind of memory-erasing "flash" (or something like that), which puts them all back on 815 headed to LA IN 2004, but they are still older (their bodies have aged though they can't remember anything).


Just was thinking - if the electric shocks and hot poker were a test - what response from Sayid (besides "WHY?" and "AAAAAAAAAAA") would have PASSED the test? How did that test show that he was infected? Does the GOOD island mojo make you immune to Heat/electricity-induced pain?
I suppose the island does seem to give the Others unnatural strength and resilience, but that seems excessive.

memphish said...

Kablamo!

Holli

memphish said...

I'm thinking something similar Ralph. Not necessarily that they reimpregnated Claire and found that outfit to put her back in, but I do think what happens on the Island at the end starts what we're seeing on the plane.

Dogen tells Jack that Sayid's not only claimed, but implies he's contagious, so maybe Claire didn't die and was claimed a la Sayid but was infected by a claimed Christian. Don't know. There seems to be multiple different things going on vis a vis Christian, Yemi, Kate's Horse, Claire and Flocke. I don't think Rousseau had the sickness I think her killing her crew prevented her from getting it.

Holli

t-dot kim said...

I don't think Claire has/had the sickness. I think she saw what the sickness could do to "people", and ran like the wind just like Rousseau did.

I'm very pleased with the last 10 minutes of this episode. THE SICKNESS!!!

Kyle from Kentucky said...

DONT TRUST THE OTHERS I say

scrdmnkydst said...

"Who are you guys?"

"We're the good guys, Michael"

"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALT" or something like that.

I digress.

In other words (geddit?), they've been telling us for ages that the Others are good 'uns.

Ralph- said...

MB -"Ralph - so you're saying the on-island Losties go thru Season 6, and some shit goes down later this season (maybe the finale) which ends in some kind of memory-erasing "flash" (or something like that), which puts them all back on 815 headed to LA IN 2004, but they are still older (their bodies have aged though they can't remember anything)."

Yes, precisely!!

The bomb set off an alternate (a sound of thunder type) Demention. After all is said and done ON the island, Jack Kate and other survivors who have gone through this ordeal are placed on the plane after being darted in the neck, and are experiencing some Deja Vu.

Jack notices his age in the mirror and Kate recognizes jack on the street and the name Aaron triggers a vague memory of the past.

Stephanie said...

Did we get new music in this episode?

Ralph- said...

there were several new themes by Giacchino as well as some different arrangements than we are used to. As far as songs, i dont remember anything off the top of my head.

t-dot kim said...

Ralph...if your theory holds up, then why is Claire still nearly 9 months pregnant? If the body ages 3 years, she would have given birth to Aaron already--or would he no exist?

If this applies to everyone on the island, how would Claire's body age and she still be pregnant?

Who's going to knock her up 8+ months before the exact date of them returning to 2004?

t-dot kim said...

*not exist

I do wonder about the blood on Jack's neck. However, wouldn't the rest of the 815ers have them as well?

memphish said...

So are Kate and Sawyer going to look for Claire or go back to the Temple?

Holli

Ralph- said...

Because that is the alternate dimension claire. She was not replaced on the plane like Jack and Kate, who have these odd memories (ie-jack in the mirror/recognizing Desmond and Kate recognizing Jack/Aaron's name)

Artz is alive, because he was alive on September 22nd, 2004. as was boone and Locke.

memphish said...

Ralph -- the date on Claire's creepy Dr. Goodspeed sonogram is 10/22/04.

Holli

Ralph- said...

that's fine. i am not saying that everyone was put on the plane after the events of season 6. I have a hunch that Hurley dies on the island and the one we see on the plane is from this alternate reality in which juliet sunk the island.

I also have a theory that in this alternate reality that Sawyer is going to get off the plane and go home to his wife, Juliet.

Ralph- said...

Charlie was "Black Shirt" and wanted to die on the plane because Black Shirt can't die on the Island and wanted to "Go Home" to some sort of afterlife cause him and Jacob are banished gods.

mb said...

Hey everyone -

Whether or not you listen to it - has the spoiler podcast I uploaded yesterday downloaded on iTunes for ANYONE. It hasn't come thru for me on the TLI feed. I'm hoping I didn't do something wrong.

Ralph- said...

think of it the same way that season 5 went down. The opening of the season had Faraday in the Orchid, then that scene came back later in the season with a new slant on it. Full circle!

KABLAMY?

Jordan said...

Sorry in advance if none of this makes sense and it's too much. I just got back from an afternoon trip to the bar with some friends. And am not sure how well this thesis I just wrote is going to read.

Jordan said...

I'm fairly certain it's all going to tie together somehow. Not exactly sure how just yet. But that's now two characters (Jack & Kate) in two weeks that have had a sort of deja vu.

I gotta highly disagree and say that I am not with the negative nancy patrol of Holli & Steph. I dug last night's ep. Was it amazing or incredible? No. But it was solid fun. Intrinsically LOST to me. I caught myself during the episode enjoying all the little touches that make LOST so much better than most all the other shows on tv. Be it the outstanding music, the characters that regardless what they are doing we care about so much, the attention to detail, the show constantly requiring it's viewer to pay attention at all times, it always leaving you wanting more, etc, etc. Now maybe it was because earlier in the day I watched the season finale to Heroes. But I couldn't help but think to myself during this ep of LOST, "Dang, there's only a handful of new eps of this show left." Now also, maybe that says something to the fact that it wasn't the most thrilling of episodes, in that I had the time to think that to myself. But I had zero qualms with it. To me it was more of a set up episode than a "WTF" event. The types of episodes that have always existed in seasons of LOST. The ones that work much better on dvd and in the context of a flowing narrative.

I also have to disagree with some on here about the X-verse timeline being of little interest. I don't see it that way at all. I get that some see it as inconsequential to the grand scheme and have trouble understanding why they should care about what is going on. I guess I could understand that a bit if you were to view it as a "what if?" parralel universe. Although even then I see value in it from a storytelling standpoint. But really though, I don't think it's a "what if?" at all. I see it as the same story being continued. I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to explain this quite right over text, but I'll give it a try. To me there is ONE story of LOST going on. Always has been. Regardless how many times the characters time travel or how many time lines there end up being, there is one overall story being told. The story being about the characters themselves, first and foremost. I feel it gets confused by some fans because many people take a higher interest in mythology, plot, and answers. Where as what the writers are mainly concerned with is telling us the story of these characters. So when Kate and Claire unknowingly meet up in the x-verse, this is a continuation of their respective character arcs from before. It takes a bit of mind-bending to see it clearly, but it's there. Hence the on-island Kate referencing Claire being the reason she returne to the island. All of this is one big thing. The way I view it goes back to Faraday and his course correcting theory. There is ONE outcome. Regardless of the hows and whens. That is why in this alt-verse all the familiar faces are having their paths cross again. It's not as simple as Claire being stupid to get into the cab with Kate (although she was). It's about if people are meant to be in your life and you are meant to cross paths with certain folks, it will happen regardless the how and when. The universe has a plan. People might do things to change the coures of history in the process. But the plan is going to come to fruition regardless.

Jordan said...

It's the whole free will vs fate thing. The way I'm seeing things currently (likely to change a couple times over throughout the season), people do have free will. To an extent. They can make choices regarding their person and choose to be the type of person they want to be. But at the end of the day, there is a story to be told. And the universe will course correct things to make sure the main points are hit. I've gotten a bit off topic, and still don't feel I've properly hit on my reasoning for not seeing the alt-timeline as inconsequential. But that's part of it. Basically, I see the alt-timeline as a redo in certain respects. But also as a "we need to make sure these same things still happen". A re-do for certain more personal character bits. And a course correcting, "Claire needs to keep Aaron" kind of way.

Also, and this this is more just myself and the type of viewer I am, and the things I find to be of importance in the show. But I find watching these characters, who I have come to care about a good deal, simply interacting to be something of value. Hell, you could tell me that the alt-timeline is nothing more than a "What if?" and that it is going to do nothing but run parralel with the "actual" island story, and I'd still be fascinated by it. Again, because I find the characters so fleshed out and so understood that seeing them simply interacting on a deja vu level, to me is interesting. Just seeing a bizarro Claire-Ethan hospital scene, where Ethan is a good intentioned doctor to me is fun.

I dunno guys. I read all the comments on here last night after I watched the ep and just wasn't on the same page as most. That's cool. We all have our own levels of enjoyment. I don't know if it has to do with relative expectations or what. But it's working for me. For the most part, I don't have too grandiose of expecations regarding what's going to happen from now til the end of the season. I really have no clue. And not too many theories. Because of that, I think it allows me to just enjoy the ride and enjoy a quality show. There are only a couple things that the writers can do that will likely bother me. If we end up seeing Jack meet his alternate version of himself, or if Sawyer time travels and meets Juliet-x who doesn't know him, that is the kind of ridiculous crap that would disappoint me. Other than that, I'm game for whatever they throw at me. I'm at the point with this show that I like it so much and I'm also not expecting anything specific that it's pretty hard for it to disappoint me.

Jordan said...

Ok. With that out of the way. Time for some more episode specific thoughts. Apologies if I touch on things previously mentioned in the thread. Been a while since I read it all.

- When sawyer held up his gun to the Others, was it just me, or was that picture perfectly spot on to him in season one after he shot the polar bear?

- Poor Miles! Did anyway else notice Miles get sucker punched by the Others henchman? It was right after Jack took offense to them taking away Sayid. Jack tussles with the gun men, and cut directly to Miles getting popped in the face, having not done a thing. Not sure why I noticed this so much. But I found it hilarious.

- We get Kate saying "I can track him" for the 73rd time in the series of the show. I love how according to the writers, she is the daughter of Wolverine or something with her tracking skills.

- Nearly fell out of my chair (or couch) when I saw Mac from Always Sunny reprising his role as Aldo. Back when he was first on the show, I wasn't a fan of Always Sunny and had no clue who he was. Wasn't until he mentioned Kate hitting him with her rifle that I even realized he had been on the show before. Was really bummed he had to die so soon. Would've enjoyed another ep or two of him being a loud mouth asking for it.

- Chuckled at the writers making a reference to their long running zombie season joke with Hurley asking Sayid if he was a zombie.

- Ethan to Claire: "I don't want to have to poke you with needles". Creeeeeepy.

- Do you think Claire saying "Ma Baybee" mutliple times in one sentence was a shout out from the writers, knowing what the fans think of her always saying that?

- My favorite dumb line(s) of the episode. When Asian dude was bouncing the baseball and Jack says, "What's that?" and he replies, "It's a baseball". I took it as just a really stupid exchange. But a friend threw out the possibility that it could be the writers mocking the constantly answer demanding fans. Could very well be. After all, it would be really annoying to have to add "What was Dogan boncing????" to "What's up with the Hurleybird?!" Although they didn't answer WHY Dogan had a base-a-ball...

- Tha Kid already mentioned it, but it stuck out to me too. When Aldo and the Degrassi guy referred to the Losties as "one of THEM". That's got to mean something. Got to.

- And I totally agree with Andrew.. I am up to my limit of Artz being annoying for the sake of being annoying. I am only interested in him if it's the universe course correcting him into being blown up again.

memphish said...

I get what you're saying Jordan about this being one story, etc. I just feel like to the extent that you get do-overs in X universes then your choices don't have consequences because there's the next universe and the next and the next. Other than the Where's Waldo aspects of finding the things in the X universe that are same and different I don't enjoy our characters getting another crack at things. I'm more like Sawyer - sure the torturer who shoots children gets another chance; that's fair -- not.

And so while I think I get what they're telling us in this story - some things change, others don't and they get another chance to make choices a la run vs. help the pregnant girl, I'm just not on board with the reincarnation-like world view. Which is my own bias, but nevertheless where the show is leaving me.

My other problem with this episode vs the premier was I don't feel like we got any character development over and above the previous 5 seasons. Unlike Jack's sort of kind of faith-like response to Locke, Kate acted both on and off Island the same way she always does. What she did for Claire was no more than what she did for the Australian farmer and Cassidy, and following Sawyer was exactly like going after Jack when he said don't come after me.

Now I did love the whole Sickness and Claire thing, so I'm looking forward to seeing where that goes. It's not like I'm jumping ship, but I do feel like doing both stories is a bit of a cop-out on the writers part and that the connection between the universes is too tenuous at this point to make the stories go together in a way that leaves me entirely satisfied.

Thanks for the genial tone and open debate here.

Holli

Jordan said...

Holli, I totally get where you're coming from. You make valid points. It pretty much comes down to a matter of personal preference. All of us take different things of the episodes and show. It's quite fascinating actually when you look across the Lost fan-scape and see the different types of fans. I myself am a fan of the show mostly due to it's storytelling and extremely fleshed out characters. I like the mythological stuff too. But that stuff takes a far back seat to the characters and their personal story arcs. But when you go online and read a lot of the fan reaction and overall speak about the show, it seems a big portion of the rabid fan base is very much mythology and answers first, who gives a crap about characters. So to each his own.

All I can really say is even though I myself am cool with simply character stuff. If you are not, I think whatever this is that the writers are giving us in the alt-timeline, is of consequence. I'd be cool with it if it wasn't and it was strictly a impressionistic look at our characters from a different view. But I don't think the writers feel the average viewer would be. I have faith that they feel that a lot of their viewers want a definite "answer". And that they know they need to give one overall narrative. And given the 3 ep's we've had so far, I do think there has been enough oddities & deja vu-ish type things in the alt-time line that says it's going to tie back somehow to the other.

PalmerEldritch said...

what jordan said.


:p


yeah, i'm enjoying the heck out of both timelines. i'm wondering if Universe-X is going to be a "It's a Wonderful Life" universe where everything goes to shit and we learn that landing on the Island was really the best possible outcome.

HOLY FUCK I JUST SPOILED ITS A WONDERFUL LIFE!!!!


ah-hem. jordan, the LOST Coverville episode is pretty great. but he mentions a previous one and i don't known which one that is.

still playing Mass Effect 1. there are a lot of elements and isotopes to survey. gotta catch 'em all.

so, yeah. Altiverse is Its A Wonderful Life. Desmond is Clarence and there's dimensional bleedthrough giving our LOSTies deja vu.

Jordan said...

Dunno Palmer. There's only been about 650 ep's of Coverville. I don't remember another Lost one.

Not sure if anyone here reads Chew. If not, it's really fun comic. But I mention it because there have been a couple subtle LOST references in the artwork over the last few issues. Thought I'd share them for those interested.

example 1

example 2

Wesh said...

thx holli for that recap on nymag. Very entertaining reading :)

mb- "Just was thinking - if the electric shocks and hot poker were a test - what response from Sayid (besides "WHY?" and "AAAAAAAAAAA") would have PASSED the test? How did that test show that he was infected? Does the GOOD island mojo make you immune to Heat/electricity-induced pain?
I suppose the island does seem to give the Others unnatural strength and resilience, but that seems excessive."


I had the impression that maybe Dogan expected Sayid to heal rapidly from the poker wound; and maybe there was supposed to be some kind of reaction in his body as a result of the electro shock. But since there were no such signs, he failed the test and is now probably inhabited by the Smoke.
Can't wait for the scene where Sayid suddenly gets spasms, falls on his knees, looks at his hands with the vains popping out and slowly blacken and then vaporize into the Black Smoke.
Or maybe I can wait :) It has to be done very cool and not half halfheartedly like the submerged island CGI :)

PalmerEldritch said...

i like the idea that they'll ask dogen what should have happened in the test if sayid wasn't infected and him responding that he should have died.

then they could be all "what what?"

clementinesdaddy said...

Random points:

Do you think Rousseau shocking Sayid in Season 1 was for the same reason as Dogan's? Did Rousseau know what would happen to someone that was infected if they were shocked?

I don't think they saved Sayid just to try and kill him again. I think they really tried to save him but Jacob's Jizzy Jacuzzi no longer works without a living Jacob. I think that when someone dies on the island, or their body is brought to the island, this "infection" can enter the body. So only after Sayid dies does Dogan worry that Sayid might be infected.

Okay, I know that this one is a stretch... did anyone else think that the adoptive mother of Claire's baby looked a little like Juliet? What if that woman was married to Ben and they were going to adopt Aaron?!? Maybe this is the woman that the comment, "You kind of look like her." was about.


This one is also a long shot, do you think that the people in the temple are actually on Flocke's side? What if Dogan and co. are trying stop Jacob from returning to the temple? There was previous discussion that there might be 2 smoke monsters. What if Jacob can turn into "Good Smokie?" What if "smoke beings" are Jacob and the nemesis' true forms? Or maybe that is the form they take when their corporeal body is dead? This could go along with the quote, "Ever been around the forest and see a black smoke that goes ticka ticka ticka when it's pissed off?" Dogan's group is trying to keep our Losties from the Jacob-smoke monster.
(Okay, as a ramble, this one seems unlikely...)

I liked Ethan's quote,

"I really don't want to stick with any needles if I don't have to..."
A nice shout out to him sticking her with needles on the Island.

Although I have never been a fan of the sci-fi aspect of Lost, I have to agree with the minority and say that Lost is still right on track for a interesting and attention-getting season!

John

clementinesdaddy said...

Btw,...101 days until the end of Lost...

(this would have been cooler if I would have noticed a week ago..)

John

PalmerEldritch said...

first off, dont let kim see your avatar. she HATES babies. the rest of the internet thinks its adorable though.

yeah! totally thought for a sec that it'd be mind blowing if the adoptive mother was Alt-JulietsSister and if Alt-Juliet wasn't able to help her conceive.

almost said "if Alt-Juliet wasn't able to get her pregnant." whaaaat?

clementinesdaddy said...

Yeah, I don't get why Kim hates the little rugrats... I always agree with Kim on her opinions of Lost, but on this one, I must most tastefully disagree...

I bet she would really be disgusted with me (I have FIVE kiddos and all of them are 7 and under)

PS- my daughter (my avatar) is of course named Clementine.. (purely coincidental with Sawyer though...)

John

clementinesdaddy said...

Ahhh... PalmerEldritch, I like your idea of Juliet's sister being the adoptive mom better! Kudos! That would have been BA!

Stephanie said...

This is what makes me mad at Lost:
Dogan says the pill is poison but some viewers like Alirio doesn't think it will actually kill Sayid. Why does it the show lie? If it led us to believe one thing and if not in the same episode set us straight or maybe the next episode. I resent the show being dishonest.

mb said...

OK I think the last episode of the spoiler seg should be fixed now. Re-uploaded and seems to be working now.

Could everyone/anyone who downloads via iTunes just confirm for me if it's downloading for them? YOU DON'T HAVE TO LISTEN - just check if its downloadind on the feed like it's supposed to. Thanks - I'd appreciate the feedback peeps.

Steph - not sure what you mean by "dishonest" - they've been playing long games with us and waiting forever to give answers from day 1 - is that what you are not digging anymore?

memphish said...

I got your spoilers in my iTunes MB. Not gonna listen though. At least not yet.

Holli

PalmerEldritch said...

i like that we have to question the motives of and the information provided by the characters. if its too straight forward and everyone played nice, it'd get real boring. plus can you imagine ben being truthful and helpful?? :p

mb said...

Thanks Holli!

Tha Kid said...

TV Guide keeps sending me free subscriptions (don't know why). I was weary to read any Lost related info (I have been spoiled by the TV Guide in the past), but I gotta say that the Feb 15-28 issue is pretty good.

Nothing spoilery other than when certain episodes are going to air. For example they say the WHO centric the March 9, 16, 23, and 30 episodes are.

For a magazine which I normally flip through in 2 minutes and toss aside it was cool to actually read something in it for once.

Jordan said...

Agree with MB & Palmer. The show has never been exactly honest with the viewer. And having to question characters' motives makes for a more interesting show. It's like we were saying last week. LOST is better when it has you guessing. When it's strictly in answer or exposition mode, that's when it gets boring.

Stephanie said...

There's a difference between characters being evasive or ambiguous and the show being dishonest. Nobody else feels like the show lies?

Tha Kid said...

Also. . . Ralph, Ralph, Ralph (shaking head)

Maybe if the LA X time didn't have a bunch of dead people on the plane and it wasn't 2004, then someone could drug Jack and put him back on the plane as if he was never on the island.

It just doesn't make sense and there are so many easier (and more rational) ways to explain why Jack is back on the plane after the original timeline events unfold that there is no point in having to create a story where Jack gets shot with a dart. Props for sticking to your guns though.

After listening to the Darlton Cast I am more convinced LA X is a "What If" or alternate story. Just the way they said that it wasn't necessary for you to have seen the previous backstories drove home the point that this LA X stuff is a new story.

The easiest way to have the two timelines meet is if Desmond turning the fail safe key merged them. We never really understood what happened when the sky turned purple. Plus being that the h-bomb prevented the hatch from being built and the key destroyed the hatch, the two universes are equals now.

The thing that gets me is that if the two universes are 1 now, then when the Oceanic 6 leave the island, wouldn't they already exist off island?

Before I came up with that, I was thinking the series could possibly end with say Sawyer and Jack (although it could be Hurley and Miles, etc) taking the place of Nemesis and Jacob because they survived and they exist off island. In order to avoid a time paradox the survivors will be cursed ala Nemesis to have to stay on the island.

Wow! Cool new theory. Nemesis was brought to the island by Jacob because Jacob was lonely? Eh. . . why doesn't Jacob bring the Laker Girls to the island? I'm starting to think there is something to the Jacob little boy innocence thing people are talking about.

Still don't understand what would happen to the 2 versions if the timelines did some how merge. Hence why I am on the "What If" boat for now.

Aight V!

mb said...

Sorry Steph - didn't mean to imply that you were wrong, just don't quite understand what you're saying they're being dishonest about. RE: the pill - what in the episode makes you think that Dogen was lying about it being poison?

mb said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Stephanie said...

Either I'm being jerked around - save Sayid just to kill Sayid. What are the motives of the new Others?
Or Dogan is lying- he said it was poison but it's actually not. This is why I hated the episode.
There's been so many other times I've felt the same way but can't think of any right now.

Jordan said...

Why would he bee lying about it being poison? Didn't Jack's test and Dogan's reaction clear that up? Or do you think that it would have had some different affect that made Dogan not want Jack to swallow it?

JoeSC said...

"Either I'm being jerked around - save Sayid just to kill Sayid.

I think I'm with MB on this one. Dogan & Co. didn't save Sayid. They tried to save Sayid and he died. Had they saved him in the pool, everything would have been hunky dory, but because he died and came back to life "infected", they now feel that they have to kill him. I totally believe that pill is poison, otherwise Dogan wouldn't have reacted to Jack taking it the way he did.

Jordan said...

Moments after watching the season 4 finale of Friday Night Lights, just read that next season is going to be the last. Sad, but not surprising in the least. Considering the ratings the show has had, it's quite amazing we will have had 5 seasons of it.

I just said it on twitter, but I'll say it again. If you don't already watch the show, I highly recommend going back and starting from season one. Even if you are put off by sports. Such a good show. Just ignore the plot with Landry & Tyra in season 2. :P

Ralph- said...

@The Kid.

Why would you listen to Carlton and Damon? You think they are going to be straight forward on the podcast?

"Maybe if the LA X time didn't have a bunch of dead people on the plane and it wasn't 2004, then someone could drug Jack and put him back on the plane as if he was never on the island."

I am saying that when Juliet set off the bomb it created two separate dimensions. and jack was put in the alternate 2004 dimension after all is said and done on the island. He gets a second chance in this "happier" 2004. A 2004 where the island was sunk, Locke could go on the walkabout in the wheel chair. Where he gets the chance to fix Locke. This is the same happy reality, where kate gets free. Claire has her baby, Hurley is lucky. Boone does not have to deal with shannon anymore. We also can deduce that Sawyer is NOT a con man, because he would have conned Hurley. This alternate future is the Happy ending that everyone gets, and now Jack gets his. The problem is that he is starting to have memories that something is not right.

memphish said...

I think the pill was totally poison too and that Dogen et al want Sayid to die. The thing I don't like about them is this manipulation of Jack to manipulate Sayid into killing himself. If this infection is so bad, kill him youself Emperor Tojo. But no, they are gung ho on this whole free will thing. Yet they straight up lied to Jack about it, and I agree it's frustrating Steph. They'll lie, but they won't kill. What kind of freaking standards are those?

Which is not to say I hate that part of the story. I like the on Island story, frustrations and all, but I do feel like the Others aren't acting in a realistic manner when it comes to things like Sayid's status. Shouldn't they at least throw him over the Temple walls?

Listened to Geronimo Jack's Beard today. I'm mellowing a bit on the whole side Universe. Or at least I'm less unhappy about it. I'll patiently play along and see where we end up. I still maintain I read this stuff between S2 and S3 in the form of Fan Fic, but I guess it's canon FanFic.

Holli

Tha Kid said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Tha Kid said...

@Ralph

My problem was never with the saying we're seeing the end of the show in the alternate timeline. My problem was with the dart caused Jack to lose his memory part / Jack was drugged and put back on the plane. Basically, for him to be on the flight in Dimension LA X he clearly has to flash or jump there by some kind of island magic.

The LA X dimension is either there to show what happens after it "ENDS" (it can only end once) or it's there to tell the story of "What If" Oceanic 815 never crashed on the island.

I just don't see a scenario where the two dimensions' stories will merge. Maybe Jack will eventually gather the LOST people and tell them the tales of the island.

Tha Kid said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Tha Kid said...

What I meant by island magic is that, for the 2007 version to exist in 2004 it would require island magic etc.

Interesting to think about whether the alternate timeline always existed or it's a new timeline that starts from when the bomb was h-bomb was detonated.

Good night!

Kyle from Kentucky said...

There's only one thing I'm interested in for the alt timeline. Desmond. If everything changed in the lives of the characters before 2004 like Sawyer never killed Hibbs, Hurley was never unlucky, Sun can't speak English then there's something more important that never happened - Desmond never pushed the button. Which means he didn't have to prove himself to Widmore by entering his boat race. That leads me to believe that Widmore never left the island to have an affair on Eloise and presumably never had Penny. So therefore what is Desmonds motivation? Seeing as how Faraday said "The rules of time don't apply to Desmond" then I think that he might be the only one with some recollection of the original timeline. And what's the point of Desmond without Penny? Can't wait to see how this plays out if it's true.

memphish said...

I think the bacon thing has run its course now.

Anyone got any interesting plans for Valentine's Day?

Holli

memphish said...

Chuck Norris

Holli

Stephanie said...

Jordan, the situation with Tammi was getting on my nerves. In what world would that possibly play out like that? I guess in the same world she would be a principal.

clementinesdaddy said...

Here is some interesting (and heavy) info on the namesake for Dogen and his beliefs:

Dōgen Zenji (道元禅師; (19 January 1200 – 22 September 1253) was a Japanese Zen Buddhist teacher born in Kyōto, and the founder of the Sōtō school of Zen in Japan. Dōgen is known for his extensive writing including the Treasury of the Eye of the True Dharma or Shōbōgenzō.


Related to this:
The ability to see this Right (Correct) View (first of the Noble Eightfold Path) of the treasure of Dharma is called the "Treasure of the Correct Dharma Eye".

(The Noble Eightfold Path is also known as the Dharma wheel)


Here is a definition of the Right View:

Right view
It is the right way of looking at life, nature, and the world as they really are. It is to understand how reality works. It acts as the reasoning for someone to start practicing the path. It explains the reasons for human existence, suffering, sickness, aging, death, the existence of greed, hatred, and delusion. It gives direction and efficacy to the other seven path factors.

...Shortly before his death, he had written a death poem:

Fifty-four years lighting up the sky.
A quivering leap smashes a billion worlds.
Hah!
Entire body looks for nothing.
Living, I plunge into Yellow Springs.

(of course 54 is 15+16+23. Also I thought the water reference at the end was interesting...)

I wonder if Dogen will help our Losties see the "Right View?"

John

Ralph- said...

everyone for the last six years have wondered how LOST would end. There are people who want happy endings (twss) and people who dont. We are seeing both. It's a choose your own adventure. Every one is happy.

memphish said...

My newest theory is the opposite of Ralph's. The flash-sideways came first, then they crash on the Island and everything we've seen from the Pilot on to the last episode on Island is how it ends. I think this because it only ends once and everything until then is progress. What we're being shown in the flash-sideways (still hate that term) is the progress they need to make to be the people they need to be to crash on 815 and accomplish both their own endings a la Boone and Shannon and The End. Finale episode title prediction -- either Genesis or Revelation since the S1 finale was Exodus.

Holli

Tha Kid said...

I can see it Holli. I still think it's more "What If" than either side needing to become the other.

Also, the fact that Jack seems to remember stuff from the island suggests that this would take place at least after the crash of 815.

The earliest I can see Jack's island consciousness going to the alt. dimension is after the bomb went off.

Tha Kid said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Tha Kid said...

*I meant I can't see it.

memphish said...

I think the deja vu works in reverse. They've been looping and each time lose a little more of their sense of looping until they land on the Island and have lost it. Desmond is special and doesn't lose the looping sense in any world and thus we've seen him go both backwards and forwards in past episodes.

It's probably full of shit, but I kind of like it better than you got 5 years of a story, but what ends up happening is the stuff we're going to give you for 1/3 of 18 episodes. And as for "what if" at this point I'm taking the writers at that word that that isn't it.

We all know it's ultimately going to be Purgatory right?

Holli

Jordan said...

Even if the series were to end with the characters only having recollection of this new alt-verse, that doesn't lessen the importance of past events to me. I know a lot of people think differently and more like Holli. But for me everything we the viewer have experienced with these characters is these characters stories. Just because they wouldn't remember it all, doesn't lessen the importance or impact of any of it. To me it's like if a character in a show suffered amnesia at a certain point in their life. That doesn't make all the events that led them to the point where they got amnesia inconsequential. Because they did take place. And without them, the character wouldn't be where it is in the end. I guess it just goes back to my main point of everyone gets something different out of Lost. And as someone more interested in the overall journey, it all feels important to me still.

Jordan said...

set up...

memphish said...

Kablamo!

Holli

memphish said...

The idea that these side-flashes influence who the people are that we see from Season 1 onward would make me much more invested in the side-flashes because it would affect the other part of the story I'm seeing at the same time. That's my biggest gripe about them right now is that the two parts of these episodes aren't crossing over the way the flashes have in the past.

Holli

Jordan said...

Just wanted to clarify that I don't think anyone is wrong in how they are viewing the series or the show currently. Like I've said, it all comes down to personal preference and what aspects of a show or story one takes enjoyment from.

For whatever reason the show could do a multitude of things and it would work for me. The alt-verse could be the end of the story, it could be the beginning of the story, or it could be happening independently on it's own. It could tie back into the on-island story and meet up with it, or it could never. And I can still find ways that it's interesting in how it relates to the past 5 seasons worth of stories. But that's just me.

Repeating myself from earlier. But at this point, the only thing I can think of that I'd roll my eyes at is if we saw dual Jack's racing against time to fix something, or people from one time line meeting alt-versions of their friends. Now that would be just silly to me. But again that just boils down to the things I find important for me as a viewer. Mostly story-related aspects. Not as much grand scheme things fitting into place and making perfect sense.

I think it's a testament to the show's quality. How you can have very different sub-sets of the fan base who all watch for totally different reasons. Part of the reason I was initially drawn to this blog was the fact that for the most part it's a different discussion going on as opposed to the average Lost forum. Besides a couple tv critics who dissect the ep's, this is the only place I go for Lost online. Most places drive me insane with their maddening (imo) over-focus on minutiae and nerdier aspects to the show. But again, that shows it's a great show. That super sci-fi geeks obsessed with answers can love it for one reason, and that people who appreciate good storytelling and character development can on a different level.

Switching topics real quick. I was recently listening to a podcast where they were talking about the internet and it's affect on modern day entertainment. And about how everything has a place for it's fans to dissect it and for their fandom to gather and grow. And they briefly talked about whether Lost would've been a hit in the pre-internet age or not. Their main conclusion seemed to be that it would prob have been around for a year or two, but that would've been it. That all the fans theorizing online and all the obsession to all the details etc likely gave it much more staying power than it would've had previously. I tend to agree with that. Had it come out years ago, it prob would've been more of a Twin Peaks type thing. Although to Lost's credit, it didn't totally fall apart in it's 2nd season like Twin Peaks did. But still, there were enough casual viewers that fell off the wagon in the 2nd season that without the other fans being so invested due to the internet, I doubt it would've been around too long. What say you guys?

memphish said...

I agree that the internet and LOST were made for each other. LOST also was hugely impacted by the rise in iTunes and iPods, the creation of podcasts, and the availability of content online. It is the one show that every episode is available in multiple places including for free.

I know a lot of people enjoy watching the show on DVD in a marathon, and I think the show will definitely live on well into the future in that form. But I also think the water cooler moreover the virtual water cooler aspect of the show is THE thing that has made this show so fun, interesting and entertaining for me. And that's not just the existence of the internet either. That's in large part do the multiple layers the creators have so successfully integrated even in Kate episodes. :-)

I love LOST.

Holli

PalmerEldritch said...

random theory of the moment:

so, the Altiverse is Its A Wonderful LOST and then our heroes will get a chance to choose which reality to keep (using donkey wheels, donkey kong, or donkey punches). and someone who got totally shafted in the LOSTiverse will throw the proverbial switch and sacrifice their alterni-happiness for the good of the world. like Alti-Locke or our Sawyer. also, Giacchino music will play and be pretty awesome.

mb said...

Jordan - I really like your point RE: the thing that truly unifies all of the show's elements is that it's all part of these characters' collective story. You're right that it's easy to lose sight of that when focusing on and discussing the minutiae of the show (which I and most of us do - it's part of the Lost experience for me). But in the end - what should stand is the feeling that a good story has been told, not that we got our questions answered.

RE: Lost and the internet. Yes - Lost was timed perfectly. It's almost like Jacob did it. It coincided with the explosion of podcasting (not the genesis, but the popularity explosion on iTunes and such), which itself was well into the popularity of iPods/mp3 players so people were pretty quick to adopt podcasts as another media to listen to on their iPod. Podcasting went hand in hand with blogging (already popular), so people had a perfect forum(s) to discuss this show which was incredibly engaging as well as raised more questions than just about any other show on television (very much a Twin Peaks-like phenom).

I like Lost.

memphish said...

Palmer, this was made for you.

Holli

PalmerEldritch said...

Creepy yet delicious.

Kelly Jo said...

So long blogpot! I'm off to the wilderness against my will.

Stephanie said...

Morgan wants to share this and this with the blogspot.

Stephanie said...

Oops. I should have checked Holli's link before I posted.

Have fun Kelly. Remember, play dead in case of bear attack.

memphish said...

The Lostiles? What is this strange thing in my iTunes?

Holli

JonFromNKY said...

Kim, if you don't start the podcast with this: song you have no soul.