Tuesday, February 16, 2010

The Substitute: Post Episode Discussion

102 comments:

Holder said...

OMG...why did they kill SAWYER??

...jk, I haven't watched yet. hardy har har.

andrew. said...

man, what a filler episode.

Kyle from Kentucky said...

Couldn't stand it

t-dot kim said...

Filler?! No way

Flock is EVIL...Stop following him Saywer!

memphish said...

Overall better than last week. But for the L'Oreal commercial there was no Kate, not even on that cave wall, so that's always a plus. The pacing was pretty slow since I had no doubt Sawyer would not fall off that ladder due to an immediate cessation of 2/3 of the viewers if Sawyer dies now.

That flash was 1/2 successful for me. I really liked seeing Locke and Helen and even Randy and Hurley. I did not like Rose and Ben being in the flash, Rose more than Ben because she's from the Bronx, not LA. I know, things changed, but that's just pushing it to me. Takes me out of it.

I liked the "answers" and questions raised on the Island. The fact that Richard and Ilana still refuse to answer basic questions or make a case for their side irritates me to no end. If it were me, I might just dive off the cliff and be done with them all.

Some people are calling "best ever," for me it's not even close to the best Locke episode (which is still Walkabout) because there wasn't enough creepy, surprise-y, emotional, though when they buried Locke at Boone Hill I thought it was sweet. Frank's joke undermined the emotion though.

Holli

Stephanie said...

Not much happened but still compelling. I think that it's that TOQ is more watchable than Evangeline Lilly.

Why wasn't Kate's name on the wall? Morgan wants to know.

Stephanie said...

I think the reason Richard nor Iliana are answering questions is because they don't know anything.

Kyle from Kentucky said...

Not the best Locke episode not by a long shot. He and Ben and Desmond have the best episodes but this wasn't even top 5 for Locke episodes. I didn't hate it but comeon. Damon says that they are refocusing on the characters but this aint Locke. Andthis flash sideways stuff is interesting but they really need to show how it ties into the island before I get relly frustrated.

memphish said...

Because Jacob doesn't want to be stuck with Aunt Flo until he can get someone else to kill him. Jacob is a misogynist.

Holli

memphish said...

I'm right with you Kyle.

Holli

PalmerEldritch said...

holy magic shit balls.

wtf! not the best ever but It's A Wonderful LOST was fun and we actually sort of kind of maybe got some answers about stuff. perhaps.

anyhow, TOQ was compelling to watch in both timelines. and now we know one of our LOSTies is a candidate to be el Jacob nuevo.

and Baby Jacob was f'n creeeeeepy.

really liked the names on the ceiling. especially before they were all "hey. look. a name of one of our characters. and then a number. a number. a NUM-BER!!"

but that first look with 16 - Jarrah and 313 - Troupe or whatever. i was freakin' out.

so, Jacob touched young Kate (uh... not like that) but her name is either not on the ceiling or scratched off. maybe jacob didnt want to be replaced by a hussy?

memphish said...

Other reason women aren't candidates -- Jacob doesn't like technology like batteries which would be necessary if she's going to stay on the Island forever.

Holli

PalmerEldritch said...

that sounds like a pretty interesting spin-off series to me.

get some Beach Boys or Marky Mark for the theme song.

PalmerEldritch said...

yeah, not the best episode ever but that's hardly something to complain about. much better than whatever drivel Christian Slater is starring in now.

what kind of stuff would you like to see start tying the LOSTiverse in with the Alternaverse? like flashes between the two? or someone having a dream bridging the two?

i think something like that must be coming down the line. or someone looking into a Palantir and seeing the other timeline or something.

memphish said...

I don't want to be the same negative Nellie I was last episode, but the problem remains the same for me. I don't like infinite universes and until I see how one universe affects the other I'm finding the X-verse less than compelling.

Holli

memphish said...

The whole thing where they showed us Jacob touching the people like we were too stupid to remember it was really annoying.

I think that's the thing about this flashes that's also irritating. In the original flashbacks people "crossed" too like Jack and Shannon, but it was subtle. Here it's too in your face.

Holli

Kyle from Kentucky said...

I cannot get totally involved in the MIB vs Jacob war storyline until I know more about their rivalry. Not saying I need all the answers right now to what has happened but I need more than hes lying no hes lying no hes lying you should be on my side no you should be on my side.....

Also if the burial is the end of the John Locke on island storyline I will be really really upset

Kyle from Kentucky said...

I want more Desmond and I want something significant for Frank too instead of just comic relief.

JoeSC said...

Holli - I couldn't agree more about the lack of subtlety in the crosses. The only thing I can think is that they're trying to show that these people were always destined to have important role in each others lives in more significant ways than just chance encounters in passing.

With that being said, I really did enjoy tonight's episode. I always expect more from a Lock-centric episode, but I didn't think about it being "centric" and instead just watched it as an episode of LOST and I think that really helped.

Sure, some of the stuff they did tonight was really in your face (the numbers, Jacob's visit flashbacks, etc.), but they gave us some decent answers (or at least gave us some good leads) and there were some pretty good moments...

- Alpert's face looking like Ben in any number of episodes where he gets pummeled and running like scared child into the forest when Flocke showed up. I get the feeling that Alpert is slowly realizing he's never really had any idea what's happening on this island.

- They haven't abandoned "the rules"! Was that really little Jacob? That was my thought, but I'm not so sure.

- No Kate. YES! And she's not on Jacob's wall? Sucks to be her! ...or does it?

- Alt-Randy is still a douche.

- I really get the feeling that Alt-Locke is hiding something. He just had the "no so innocent" face on a number of occasions.

- I thought the statue was on the opposite side of the island from Boone Hill and the camp. Are we meant to believe that the four of them hauled Locke's body from the statue to the graveyard in one afternoon? Am I missing something?

- Ben? Teacher? WTF? Does that mean the island didn't blow up in 1977 in X-Verse, because Ben would have been on the island when the bomb blew (unlike Ethan).

- For a split second I was worried that Sawyer was going to fall and get claimed by Flocke.

- Frank's comment at the end of Locke's funeral did take away from the emotion of the scene, but I still laughed and think the line really helped to underscore the odd funeral (and speech by Ben).

- How the fuck do they not have a SINGLE Claire scene after the end of last week. I kind of expected it, but it was still a letdown.

Holder said...

I dunno if y'all were joking about this being a filler episode, but I definitely don't see it like that. I mean, we're getting some pretty good shit here.

Locke, Reyes, Ford, Jarrah, Shephard, Kwon. I doubt we're gonna get anymore insight into the numbers, but that is enough for me. Satisfied with that. Actually, wasn't Hurley heard saying the numbers when the Ajira flight crash landed? What' up with that?

JoeSC said...

I have a feeling they're not totally done with the numbers. I agree that I'm fine with it ending right there, but I'm sure they'll find some way to explain it just a little more at some point. Either that or actually show what role the numbers played in getting everyone to the island. Not a huge concern anymore, though.

JoeSC said...

And I think that because of the way they're telling the story this year, these episodes will get better with time. I enjoyed both LA X and What Kate Does more the second time I watched them and I'm thinking that's gonna hold true for a lot of this season's episodes.

t-dot kim said...

I really liked this episode. I don't think it was filler at all. I do agree that's all we'll see of the numbers--but we didn't see "Kate", are we to assume that she's #4?

I'd like to see what's in the rest of that cave.

JoeSC said...

One last thought... I think the Kwon on Jacob's wall was Jin. Not only is Kwon his birth name, but he ended up back in 1977 while Sun flashed into the future. Sun wasn't meant to come back, so she didn't flash with the rest of them.

t-dot kim said...

...oops, that should have read "NOT" all we'll see of the numbers

JoeSC said...

For reference:

4-Locke
8-Reyes
15-Ford
16-Jarra
23-Shephard
42-Kwon

t-dot kim said...

....whoops...

does that mean Kate's #108?

PalmerEldritch said...

what if Kwon is Ji-Yeon?

whaaaaaaat?

PalmerEldritch said...

kate's not on the wall cuz she's not a candidate?

i was thinking any scratched off name was a dead person. but the lovely girlfriend suggested that it just meant they were ruled out as a candidate. so, maybe kate IS on the wall but has been ruled out?

so, Jacob's been dicking people over throughout time in an effort to sucker them into taking his place? or does he really think that jizz island needs an ineffectual champion stuck in a cabin?

and if jacob's the island's defender, what's smokey's job?

i got a kick out of Focke throwing the rock and saying "inside joke." good stuff.

really liked the episode but then again i really like LOST. it was fun, had answers, and was compelling on and off island. i understand that the off island stuff is, at this point, extraneous but it has to have some greater point. whether to reinforce themes, illustrate points, or to pit AquaJacob against the Man-inside-Locke, Tobias Smökey.

oh man. that little Jacob kid was creeptastic.

interesting that Tobias Smökey was surprised that Sawyer could see him.

i like LOST.

Kyle from Kentucky said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kyle from Kentucky said...

Jacob is a sexist

t-dot kim said...

So....if you're on Jacob's list, you can't die unless he rules out you're a candidate? OR by killing yourself/willing to die, you take yourself off the list?

Jacob realises Kate's useless too?

Holder said...

Oh yeah I'm hoping that the "inside joke" wasn't the writers telling us they weren't intending on revisiting the light and dark rocks w/ Adam and Eve. There was one black one and one white one right? Those seemed a little bigger than the ones on Adam and Eve though. I dunno. I hope off island Ben and Locke become bff's.

Holder said...

Kim, I think you can die if you're a candidate. You just get crossed of once you die or once Jacob rules you out for some reason.

Palmer, was that a Arrested Development joke?

Tha Kid said...

I'm sorry, if you didn't like this episode you're not a LOST fan. Just like if you couldn't figure out the secret prize Jay and Jack were giving out of from the clues you're not a Lost fan. LOL!

This was the best non-Desmond episode and arguably in the top 5 (definitely top 10) episodes if you count finales as 1 episode.

I am starting to think LA X is the world if Jacob did not exist.

Biggest question raised:
- If Locke wasn't pushed out of a window by his dad (his dad is invited to the wedding), why is he in a wheel chair?

Biggest question I have regarding blogspot reactions:
How can you still think Jacob is not evil? I think it's because he looks like a chump so you think he's incapable of doing anything heinous.

Look at his followers. He corrupted Ben. He seemingly OKed the extermination of the Dharma Initiative, he manipulates kids, he kept his followers in the dark. How is this guy good?

I am really interested in seeing how the writers are gonna spin this to make "Flocke" into the bad guy. I am certain they are going to, but logic dictates "Flocke" is the good guy.

Plus, you'd really have to be an idiot to listen to Richard at this point. That guy is clueless.

Ralph- said...

i have a great theory about Sawyer's shit-soaked underpants, but i will save that for the morning.

andrew. said...

i was only kidding about it being a filler episode.

Jordan said...

Palmer said:

"really liked the episode but then again i really like LOST. it was fun, had answers, and was compelling on and off island. i understand that the off island stuff is, at this point, extraneous but it has to have some greater point. whether to reinforce themes, illustrate points, or to pit AquaJacob against the Man-inside-Locke, Tobias Smökey."

Totally agree, 100%.

Not my normal long-winded self tonight. So I'm just gonna leave it at that.

Oh, one other thing. Any one else here watch Sons of Anarchy? And if so, were you as freaked out as me watching Katey Sagal the entire ep? The whole time I'm waiting for her to pull a gun on Locke, and then bang the delivery guy. For those of you who haven't seen the show, she's borderline evil on it. But also awesome. I recommend it.

And yeah, it did get a little 'Lost for Dummies' with the whole spelling out the names on the cave part. Yeesh.

More thoughts to come tomorrow. Peace out.

scrdmnkydst said...

I really liked this episode. Nothing absolutely amazing, but time and above last week's.

RE: the numbers and the candidate's names, could it be the order in which they all die on the island? Troup was one of the first who died, so he was 313, etc. So the people who die 4th from last, 8th from last, etc etc etc, are all candidates?

If that's true, then maybe Sun or Jin will probably die this season? Hmm. I'm going to guess that it's Jin, because while Jacob touched them both, he touched Jin through his suit and Sun directly on her skin... Guess work though.

Knowing our luck, Sun and Jin will end up getting reunited while one of them has been fatally wounded or something... :/

JonFromNKY said...

I saw a HUGE parallel to The Stand in this episode.

Locke Monster = Randall Flagg
Sawyer = Lloyd Henreid

Flagg recruited Henreid first

memphish said...

Maybe Adam and Eve were Smokey and Jacob or the people they were before they were trapped on the Island assuming anything Flocke said was accurate. Thus the black and white rocks. Except they were on one of the skeletons, not both. Nevertheless, I'll go with that answer.

Holli

memphish said...

Kwon-blamo!

Holli

memphish said...

So is Ilana just wrong that Flocke can't change forms since we saw Alex threaten Ben or was that something else? Or is he only allowed temporary changes?

Holli

Jordan said...

She said that he can't change anymore. Basically the writers explaining what I was asking after the season premiere. Why he'd continue taking the form of John Locke after killing Jacob. Once he fooled Ben into killing Jacob, he had no more reason to look like Locke. But we all know that the writers want to continue using Terry O'Quinn on the island. So they needed an excuse. And apparently it's because now that Jacob is dead, he can't change back from the form of Locke. For whatever reason. How very convenient.

memphish said...

Dang, you're up early -- or late.

Holli

Jordan said...

Helen mentioned Locke's father going to the wedding. So is Anthony Cooper not a terrible man in the alt-verse? I'm guessing he didn't push Locke out the window. Wonder how Locke lost the use of his legs.

European history teacher Ben cracked me up. Would love to get to see more of him for some reason.

Jordan said...

Late. Sort of, not really. My schedule is just about upside down of late.

memphish said...

Supposedly there's a picture of Locke and his dad in Locke's office or something. I haven't gone looking for it yet though. It's also odd they didn't mention his mother since originally it was her who hooked up Locke and Anthony Cooper. Can you just see that group at a Vegas wedding chapel? Locke and Helen. Helen's parents and A Coop looking for a chickadee to scam. Now that would make a good movie.

Holli

Jordan said...

Was I the only one who wants to drink whiskey with Sawyer? Dude knows how to pour a glass.

memphish said...

That's what we call a Men's Grill pour.

Holli

Jordan said...

One thing I liked about the alt-Locke story was that it wasn't too sunny or too grim. Yes, he still gets frustrated about his limitations. And yes, he still has stuff not always go his way. But he sure seems a lot more at peace about it all. For example he said that it made sense for him to not be let on the walk about. And he sort of chuckled a bit when the sprinkler went off in his face. And he seemed rather at ease with the substitute teaching gig. Prob helps that he has Helen in his life to make it easier. But I liked that his alt-reality wasn't overly lollipops and gumdrops, while still showing a more positive life for John Locke.

memphish said...

Names found on the cave wall include:

Jones, Mattingly, and Cunningham - Army soldiers the Others later pretended to be and

(Claire / Aaron) Littleton, (Charlotte) Lewis, (Gary) Troup, Bargas, Aguila, O’Toole, Lacombe, Domingo, Grant, Goodspeed, Reynolds, Burke, Almeida, Costa, Faraday, Straume (why is he crossed out if he’s not dead?), Pace, and Rutherford

Thanks goodness Lewis isn't a candidate! And totally weird about Miles. Was Straume his mother's maiden name?

Holli

Jordan said...

So if the ladder broke when Sawyer fell. How exactly is he getting out of that cave?

memphish said...

Maybe it connects to the tunnels.

Here's the photo of Locke and Dad. Also Helen and Locke with Locke appearing to be standing. I would like to know how X-Locke got in the wheelchair. I want it to be Sarah Shephard crashed into him instead of Shannon's dad.

Holli

PalmerEldritch said...

holder, yes. AD reference. not a very good one but every time Jay and Jack talk about "The Man in Locke," the only thing i can think of is Tobias Fünke's book "The Man Inside Me."

awesome info on those names, holli. so, you can just be ruled out and not be dead. oh. and Miles' last name is Straum(e?) because it sounds like Maelstrom. yeah. i guess its his mother's last name or a temporary step-dad's or something.

clementinesdaddy said...

IF you haven't seen it yet, someone compiled all the names and numbers on the wall:

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Cliffside_cave

It was already mentioned that Miles' name was crossed out, but how could Juliet's name be crossed out already? At the time of her death, Jacob and Flocke were both busy. Hmmm....


Remember when Hanso and the whole Valenzetti equation were the "hip" thing to discuss? They said the Dharma Initiative was created to change one of the 'variables' (ie- numbers) to avert the destruction of humanity. With Locke dead, and he was #4 on the wall, has that been changed? Is he to be replaced by another person with another number?

I think we will see a character we already know be assigned a number and become one of the "Numbered", and those lucky 6 will complete some necessary task to save everything/the Island/time/reality/Kim and Aimee's innocence.

John

I agree with Kim and crew: cool episode! not the best, but FAR from the worst!

PalmerEldritch said...

lost cartoons are kind of amusing.

john, i'm thinking juliet was ruled out before she died.

PalmerEldritch said...

btw, that picture for the thread is fantabulous. wtf?!

memphish said...

I love how much people talking on the Internet want to believe in Flocke because he gives us some answers even if they are 100% BS. There's probably some management class material in that.

Holli

Ralph- said...

i saw that in HD, which of course stands for Horrifying Diarrhea!

Tha Kid said...

Re Iliane on Flocke

Flocke not being able to change faces can't be because Jacob is dead.

According to Iliana they brought the body to show people what they were up against. At the time they decided to do this they did not know Jacob was dead.

Plot hole or something to think about?

I still don't understand why anyone would be on the Others'/Jacob's side. What good have they done? At least Flocke saved James' life.

My siding with Flocke is more my enemy's enemy is my friend than trusting Flocke.

I just can't be on Jacob's side. That dude was evil.

PalmerEldritch said...

ok, so Baby Jacob tells Tobias Smökey that Tobias can't kill "him." unless Baby Jacob has been hanging out with The Rock and Bob Dole, he's either not Baby Jacob or he's not talking about Jacob. maybe he was telling Tobias that he can't kill SAWYER. dun dun dun!!!!!


also, looking at the names on the Cliffside Cave at Lostpedia, Troup comes up twice. is one Gary Troup? and the other his Bad Twin?

Tha Kid said...

Inquiry:
Why doesn't Flocke turn into smoke and carry James down into the cave?
- James obviously knows Flocke isn't Locke and that he's no longer alive, what's the point of hiding the fact that he's the smoke monster?

PalmerEldritch said...

that might scare the bejeezus out of Sawyer. and he already shit his pants back in dharmaville. don't want a repeat of that all of your smokey exterior.


but, yeah, i was expecting Focke to use some island magic to save Sawyer. ends up you just need arms.

mb said...

Very good episode! Agree with Palmer that it had the elements needed for an entertaining ep. For me, what made it good was a few really nice WTF moments (the ones where it feels like some new twist in the story just got blasted open), and those were:

1) the boy in the forest, & Flocke's reaction to him.
2) Jacob's cave & the numbers
3) Sawyer can see the boy but Richard can't? Interesting.

The fact that the boy scolded Flock saying "You know the rules - You can't kill him" makes me think that it's not Jacob, and that it's someone/something beyond both of them - another voice of the Island itself perhaps? It wouldn't make sense at all - but the boy LOOKED like an older Aaron.

That said, I read a pretty good theory on Lostpedia saying that perhaps that the boy IS Jacob being resurrected. However, the part of the theory that caught my attention was that Flocke may have "broken the rules" when he kicked Jacob into the fire at the end of Season 5. This theory is positing that THAT is what killed Jacob. While the knife wound may have done him in eventually (or not?), the fact that Flocke kicked him into the fire means that HE killed Jacob (or tried to), and thus broke the rules, and because of that - Jacob is not dead.
Dunno how much I buy into it - but I thought it was a good theory.

Does the fact that Flocke yells out a Locke-ism ("Don't tell me what I can't do!") supposed to mean that there is something of Locke in him - or that he adopts something of each person he inhabits?How can you still think Jacob is not evil?

I can't believe I didn't catch the idea of that ladder to the cave being Jacob's Ladder.


"I doubt we're gonna get anymore insight into the numbers"

While I too am fine if we don't - I've got a feeling there's about 1 more reveal Cuselof has to tell about them (NO spoilers - just a feeling).


"Maybe Adam and Eve were Smokey and Jacob or the people they were before they were trapped on the Island"

I like this idea - have no idea how plausible it is yet.


RE: Illana taking the ash from Jacob's fireplace - is that supposed to be the same ash that is used around the cabin and temple. It looked lighter. I was wondering if the Temple cabin ash was darker and this stuff is lighter and perhaps they serve different purposes?

Tha Kid: re: Jacob being evil - I really don't see this. I actually see the MiB/Jacob relationship as going quite a bit beyond good vs. evil (especially after watching "The Substitute"), but to answer your question - "How can you still think Jacob is not evil?": I think mainly because he seems to be interested in freewill and the ability for people to progress. Evil generally isn't interested in those things.

Also - I don't think we've seen anything to suggest that it was Jacob who was complicit in manipulating Ben or OK-ing any of the things he did. If anything doesn't the break in the ash around the cabin (that Illana pointed out in The Incident) suggest that it's been MiB that we've seen in the cabin, and who may have been manipulating Ben?

I'm honestly not sure all what elements are going to end up characterizing the Jacob/MiB relationship, but I think free will vs. fatalism plays heavily into it. I think good/evil will play into it too, but in so far as what actions either characteristic (freewill/fatalism) engenders in people.

Many thoughts. That's how I can tell it's been a good episode for me :)

memphish said...

I like the idea that the ladder save was earning Sawyer's trust kind of like Juliet's whole twisted handcuffed to Kate line of thinking.

I agree that people are pulling for Flocke because right now he's the lesser of two evils.

One idea I'm having right now is that what Flocke says about staying to protect the Island as the new Jacob is a lie, but instead Flocke is trying to get Sawyer to trade places with him trapping Sawyer on the Island and allowing MIB to escape. There's some conning a con man thing in that a la Ben with the 8 bunny. Taking Sawyer to the edge of the Island was of course reminiscent of that con as well. And a final part of that idea is the fact that Jacob is not trapped on the Island, we see him off the Island, but Flocke hasn't really made that idea clear to James.

Holli

PalmerEldritch said...

If Men Wrote Womens Magazines

amusing.

i wonder if our heroes will reject both Jacob and the Fantastic Mr. Focke ala the end of *spoilers for 90s scifi tv redacted*.

mb said...

"According to Iliana they brought the body to show people what they were up against. At the time they decided to do this they did not know Jacob was dead."

Actually, at the time they decided to do that (back on the other island where 316 crashed), Jacob was alive. I assumed Illana & co. figured out who Flocke was when they saw Locke's dead body in the cargo of the plane, so they hauled the body to the Statue (not sure how or if they expected all the others to be there) at which point they find out that Flocke has already gone inside to confront Jacob.

memphish said...

This was a highlight for me last night.

Holli

Robbie said...

Why did they have Ben with his back to John in the flash-sideways?

As if we weren't going to recognize Michael Emerson's voice surely

Kelly Jo said...

I really liked the episode, but the numbers "answer" was to predictable for me.

Jordan said...

Thanks to Twitter & Roger Ebert, I give you the weirdest site on the internet!

Tha Kid said...

MB

If you go and look at all the MiB/Smoke Monster encounters you will see that he always give the person a choice.

Even the people who came into the foot of the statue were given a choice to just leave. Instead they CHOSE to attack and were killed as a result.

Jacob on the other hand manipulates people to do what he wants.

Since the Smoke Monster gives people a choice and Jacob is manipulating people, I take it as Flocke being the less evil of the two.

Tha Kid said...

ALSO

MB, when she said Flocke can't change his face anymore I was pointing out that it can't be a result of Jacob dying.

This is because when they decided to bring Locke's body to the Foot of the Statue, they didn't think Jacob was dead but they still brought the body so people would know who they are up against.

Holder said...

Sawyer pooped...in Sawyer's unnawears.

Fleudiddy said...

With all this candidate talk what about Frank and Miles even though we haven't seen that they received the touch yet weren't they both looked at as potential candidate?

Also Locke's dad at the wedding??? This must mean either Cooper isn't really John's father or maybe this is an adoptive dad.

We may suppose to hate Man in Locke, but dammit he gives answers. If I was Sawyer I'd follow him too just because he gives straight answers without the "I'll tell you when you're ready" crap the others and Jacob have been feeding.

Finally I think that Sawyer will become the new Smokey he is the only candidate that hasn't left the island since the crash.

mb said...

Tha Kid- Good point -I'm re-evaluating my ideas.
However, Jacob also made a point to explicitly tell both Hurley and Ben that they have a choice.
In his encounters with the other 815ers, he does definitely seem to be "nudging" them toward certain behavior, I hesitate to say "manipulate" because there is a lack of JUDGEMENT from Jacob, and maybe THAT is the big difference between him and MiB. MiB judges (and condemns) people, Jacob does not.
It is true that in the case of Eko and Jacob's guardians, he specifically gave them a choice, and I'm trying to decide whether smokey's encounters with others (like with Eko or Juliet), where he seems to be assessing them, whether it's clear that he's judging their worth or not. I'm going to have to go back and look.

memphish said...

Yes they get "choices," but they tend to be choices between rock and hard place not the choices they really want to make. So Hurley can choose to go back to the Island or to the asylum or to being crazy and alone in LA. Ben can choose to continue to be ignored by Jacob or kill Jacob. And Sayid had no choice. Jacob let his wife get killed, in front of him, and then had him handcuffed and dragged back to the Island.

Holli

memphish said...

Happy Birthday Alirio, Christine and Ralph!

I put them in time zone order.

Holli

Fleudiddy said...

Did anyone noticed when dead island John Locke was smiling after alterverse Locke met with Hurley??? Because he sure wasn't smiling when he was buried. Is that a hint to a possible merge or just an acting error??

PalmerEldritch said...

happy birthday, alirio and ralph! and christine!

so, if Baby Jacob was telling Tobias Smökey that he couldn't kill Sawyer, would Eko being not killed by Smokey and then later being killed by Smokey mean that he was a candidate the first time but eliminated as a candidate before the second time?

mb said...

Happy birthday Ralph, Alirio and Christine! I will raise a glass to each of you tonight as I celebrate the Ace's 8th trip around the sun. Enjoy yourselves! :)

I didn't see Eko's name on the cave wall - but there were tons of unreadable names. But has smokey ever been interested in who is a candidate? He seemed to be pretty disdainful of Jacob's whole quest for a replacement.

Ralph- said...

Thanks guys!

PalmerEldritch said...

the ace's birthday too?! happy birthday, the ace!

mb said...

Thanks P - I will pass along the wish :)

mb said...

DOH! serious type-o - this is the Ace's SEVENTH trip around the sun not 8. Yikes! :/

Tha Kid said...

Happy birthday to all.

MB don't over think it. I don't think the writers had the smoke monster's origins mapped out when they introduced it.

Instead I think they are looking back at what they wrote and trying to write with what they created. Reverse writing if you will.

The only good thing Jacob did is revive Locke.

Everything else that he did was evil. I'm sorry, but the Others carried out the genocide of the Dharma Initiative and Richard was there. I can't accept that they would do that unless Jacob had told them to. As I had pointed out in the finale last year, and Holli brought up again, Jacob allows Nidia (Sayid's wife, not sure on name) to die, he bails out Kate from trouble, and he pushes James to write the letter to Sawyer.

I'm sure there's more stuff I'm missing.

I guess Jacob's encounter with Jack, Sun and Jin were also not evil. Maybe it was Jacob touching Sun and Jin that made them infertile off island. I can't remember what he told Jack, but maybe that also led him toward the wrong path.

My point is Jacob is altering people's fates.

Stephanie said...

@Robin_MJ from Media Junkyard suggested the mysterious boy could be Aaron projecting himself just as Walt did. It doesn't make sense to me that it's Jacob. He was talking about Fake Locke killing Jacob. He wouldn't be talking about himself in the third person.

JoeSC said...

I agree completely Steph. They made that kid look way too much like Aaron for that to be coincidence.

Kyle from Kentucky said...

Ive been in the anti Jacob camp since 5/13/09. The Others have been bad since the beginning and little aside from Juliet has made me think otherwise.

memphish said...

I know several people around here have recommended Breaking Bad. They are re-airing the first 20 episodes leading up to the premier of Season 3 in March. Here's the schedule for your DVRing pleasure.

I made it into episode 3 back in Season 1 before certain events in terms of, well, we'll just say disposal, got to me. I think I'll give it another go though I've heard such good things about Season 2.

Holli

Holder said...

way to go kyle, youre the smartest lost fan out there

Kyle from Kentucky said...

Holder said...
Sawyer pooped...in Sawyer's unnawears.

^

na 2nd most intelligent

Stephanie said...

Holli, I'm able to enjoy Breaking Bad now that we're done with the guy in the basement. The end of season two is great. The love Walt has for his family is pretty touching. The baby shower nearly made me cry.

Stephanie said...

Why did I say season two when I meant season one?

memphish said...

I asked this before and got no answer, so I'll try again. Is anyone here watching Archer on FX? It is so wrong, but so funny. I definitely recommend it. If you want to catch up, check out your On Demand options as well as online.

Holli

mb said...

I have not checked out Archer - though the promos were making me chuckle. Imma hafta DVR dat s**t now.

Holder said...

Yeah, no one got (or acknowledged) my Jon and Kate reference, Kyle...

Either way you're still the best, most clever, and funniest Lost fan out there. Go get em tiger. We're all waiting on pins and needles for you to call in to the TLI line. I'm stoked just thinking about all the quirky observations you'll tickle our funny bones with. Make sure you insult Jay's fiance too...that's always a good idea, right bud?

JonFromNKY said...

I request "Substitute" by The WHO, or the 80's metal remake by Great White

Tha Kid said...

Still no TLI? The one time I'm at my comp this weekend and it's not on! The Offical Podcast also isn't up. (Shrugs) Guess I'll listen to the Transmission.

Quick Query
Did the video say God loves you like he LOVED Jacob?

Yet another hint pointing at Jacob being evil.

They better not be the same person!

Tha Kid said...

They meaning Jacob and Flocke.

PalmerEldritch said...

that sounds familiar (god and jacob and room 23).

cant wait for LOSTuesday!