Wednesday, May 13, 2009

5x16-17 "The Incident" Post-Episode Discussion



Discuss.

93 comments:

t-dot kim said...

WTF!!!!!

Mir said...

I gotta agree with Kim.

Why only 1 post?

Kyle from Kentucky said...

While other people are obsessed with Jate vs Skate, Whatever happened happened/you can change it, etc etc I have been obsessed with one thing for very long.

'One side is light...one is dark..'

Jacob vs his brother Esau is what it's all about.

People can coexist and live in harmony vs people are evil and will corrupt and destroy.

Then there is the actual philosopher John Locke who came up with 'Tabula Rasa' - people are born with blank slates. Jacob thinks people are born good. Esau thinks people are born bad. After 5years I finally know why my character has that name.

'Dead is Dead you can't come back from that.' Indeed Benjamin and you have not only murdered Locke, but now Jacob also. You are simply a pawn Jacob in Esau's twisted game of free will.

Jordan from the 206 said...

I'm not going to step on anyone's toes and say that any and all conjecture towards what the future holds is exactly that, conjecture. Oh wait, I just did. Really though. That was flippin' nutty. What the hell is the deal with the dude from the first scene/bizarro Locke? Feels like I'm reading an X-Men comic.

Crazy/thrilling/intense/fun ep. I Could write an essay if I didn't have to get up early and hadn't stayed up past my bedtime to watch this nutty show. For now though, I will let. Miley speak for me.

Herlihy said...

MOST FRUSTRATING AND ANNOYING CLIFFHANGER EVER

Mir said...

I wish they would've shown the first scene last. As soon as I saw the "other guy" (not Jacob), I assumed OG is smokey, Locke is in the crate, and OG is using Locke to kill Jacob. Then they had Locke tell Ben that Ben was going to kill Jacob and that basically confirmed it. Anyway. . . the only other thing that kind of pissed me off was that I thought it was pretty fake that Jules was still alive at the bottom of the well(?).

Overall a good episode.

The only things I would've changed are showing the first scene at the end and showing a short clip of what happened after the bomb went off. Even Heroes did that. I hated the LOST with white background finish.

Jordan from the 206 said...

One thing before I go. Was I the only one who found the Rose & Bernard scene to feel VERY strange? I don't think it was intentionally meant to be that way at all. But something about it just came off odd and awkward. It odd emotions and disconnect between the characters in that scene felt as if they had animatronic robots filling in for R&B.

Oh, and Jack (Not Bauer) Shepherd continues to be totally horrible with guns. Hi-larity.

Mir said...

Props to KFK for knowing Esau's name and not calling him OG.

Mir said...

In my defense, I'm a westcoaster and I just finished watching the episode (watched on delay to skip commercials).

Holder said...

They didn't say the other guy's name...KKK is just speculating.

mb said...

Wow - I am stunned at the lack of comment. Maybe we need to make a rule that once the time stamps in a thread pass 9pm Eastern, the thread becomes spoiler territory? We shouldn't have to need a completely new thread, should we? I generally check out around 6pm my time and don't return till ive watched the ep., otherwise I would have postea new thread - sorry!

Anyways - its a moot point for 8 F**KIN MONTHS NOW!!!!

(sigh) Lost stole my patience

So - "The Incident"

MY BRAIN IS WONDERFULLY FRIED!!! What a jam-packed double episode. Kyle is right - they certainly couldn't have made it clearer that this show (if it was in question before now) is about light v. dark - Jacob vs. Esau (assuming perhaps wrongly that the dark-clad guy before the title @the begining was Esau or an Esau-like character). As with every season before, our circle of perception just widened again, and it was REALLY satisfying and awesome :)))

Boy was I wrong about Ilana and crew.

I've got too many f**kin thoughts and it's midnight:30. We'll all let our freak flags fly with flair and full force tomorrow. :)

night

Holder said...

Can we refer to this man in black as the Locke-a-Like?

Holder said...

So, I guess when Ben and the Locke-a-Like (I'm gonna make that stick) come out from the statue's base, Locke will be in a suit and there will be people all around who want to hurt (someone that looks like) him. So Walt's dream was kind of right.

On another note, Matthew Fox confirmed on Kimmel tonight that he knows what the final scenes of the show are going to be.

The inverted "LOST" thud at the end...was it just meant to look cool or is there some significance?

Holder said...

So...AMES is an anagram for SAME. Kind of simple, but I'm just throwing it out there.

James said...

I felt like I'd watched the hokiest 2 hours of LOST ever! I hated it! WTF was with Rose and Bernard??? Incredible filler...expository. It looked weird with the perfect pressed clothes and just two perfect digs. Fucking surreal.

Overkill with Juliet. Production value felt like Battle for the Planet of the Apes. Seriously, I think my show has somehow jumped the shark!

James said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
James said...

I think for me tha tthe moment they all slipped on Dharma jumpsuits the show has Lost it's edge, somewhere, somehow.

Holder said...

So since Locke-a-Like took RealLocke's form after RealLocke's body arrived dead on the island, are we also inferring that Locke-a-Like also took Christian's form and manipulated all the people we saw him interact with as Christian? And was he every dead person we saw appear to our characters, all in an attempt to get Ben and a fake Locke to have an audience with Jacob so that Ben could kill Jacob and in the end this black-shirted asshole could "win"?

At least I have these 8 months to go back and watch the show knowing what I know (or think I know) now.

I can't sleep.

JamieB_UK said...

Still not sure about this episode, it was good, I just think I was expecting a bit more. I did enjoy the Jacob centric flashbacks and Juliets death scene was one of the best, maybe even better than Charlies. I also enjoyed the Rose and Bernard scene, but I may be in the minority on that one.

Wasn't too sure about the Locke/Ben storyline, it didn't really have me gripped, and I just found Jacobs death scene a bit of a drag. Bit disappointed by what we saw of The Incident, although I have a feeling we only saw the beginning. Also what was with Juleits flashback? Wasn't she born in the 70's, because that scene looked more like the 90's.

Stephanie said...

Yes, Rachel and Juliet's mom's hair should have been bigger.
The Rose and Bernard scenes made me laugh. It worked for me somehow.
Lindeluse lied. The beige car in everyone's flashbacks early on in the series was the same person trying to shape the survivor's destinies. When will I stop listening to those goofballs?
Wonder why they chose that unassuming guy to play Jacob?
Jacob touched the survivors to cause them to blow up the island so Locke-a-like wouldn't be able to find the loop-hole. There.

Stephanie said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Stephanie said...

Overall, I'd say I was pretty bored with the finale. But leave me with an exciting ending and I will forgive.

Stephanie said...

Surprisingly, the big almost death didn't move me as I expected. What did make me emotional though was the "Lost: the final season 2010" at the end.

JamieB_UK said...

I would say I was half bored, the only time I wanted to fast forward was the 2007 storyline, it just seemed to take away from the other story. Also the Jack vs Sawyer smackdown was definitely worth waiting 5 years for.

Stephanie said...

Ah, yes. The Jack/Sawyer smackdown must be my avatar.

Kelly Jo said...

I left a voice mail about this but how does Juliet not die from that fall?

Kelly Jo said...

Over all I thought this episode was awesome!

PalmerEldritch said...

how does Locke not die from his fall?

also, i think it was implied she was going to die from her fall.

but now that she's nuked FridgeIsland, will she be OK cuz she'll be on a non-nuked FridgeIsland hanging out with Ben who will die of cancer?

and what's with the babies on the Island?

lots of questions. most of which i can't remember.

what's that Jacob guy up to?

and if blowing up the nuke resets the timeline (here's hoping that it doesn't), does that mean that Locke never time-fucks and Jacob is actually still around to give pens and lunchboxes to little kids?

the casting of little Kate was great. and... KATE'S STUPID TOY AIRPLANE!!!! now, will people shut up about that? prolly not. :p

Kelly Jo said...

Okay so am I the only one who thought Jacob looked a lot like Toby from the office?

Kelly Jo said...

Well all I know is at the rate she fell she should have died on impact.

Stephanie said...

Jacob healed Locke when his daddy pushed him out of the window and fell 8 stories. Therefor, Juliet was healed by Jacob in order for Jack to nuke the island. Jack nukes the island so Locke-a-like can't kill him. Therefor, this show has jumped the shark. Just throw logic out the window.

Herlihy said...

I still think that come january next year, we'll see them all crashing on the island again.

Fleudiddy said...

Was anyone else waiting for Dexter to come in and slash Jacob up into pieces. And I've gotta say I almost cried for Juliet yeah I said it. And who wasn't happy to see Rose and Bernard. It just sucked donkey to wait 3 seasons to see who this Jacob guy was only to have him snuffed out in one episode. It seemed like the writers tried to cram in as much crap as possible into this one finale.

memphish said...

I really enjoyed the finale. I liked the endings in both time frames. Spoiler-free is getting to be the only way to go because even hearing phrases like "major character death" colors you so much it can ruin things. And every possible death we saw last night is now up for question, except Phil right? If Phil died in 1977 he's dead because he has no other version of himself.

Seems like we've got a lot of ways we could speculate at this point, but it wouldn't be more than mere speculation. I'll stick with my earlier prediction that the plane lands and next season is what these characters will be like if that happened.

I'm not sure how to view the Ben/Widmore feud given the Jacob/Black Shirt one. I'm not willing to call him Esau yet. Biblical Esau wasn't a vindictive manipulative bastard, he was just a good ole boy, so I'm not willing to paint Esau with that brush -- yet.

Holli

Herlihy said...

Was anyone a bit disappointed not to see Walt randomly pop up in a scene and contribute nothing to the entire episode but just for the shock of him being there?

memphish said...

Also I was glad Kate finally hit someone she was shooting at. Maybe off Island Kate went to the range while Aaron was at daycare.

Holli

Stephanie said...

I believe Lost hired the wig guy from Angel which btw I am enjoying very, very much.

PalmerEldritch said...

i kind of liked seeing Rose and Bernard, even though it was basically a cover for the actors not being in the other episodes.

"uh... cuz we totally hid from you. yeah, THAT'S the ticket!"

but it was nice to see them and nice to know that they've been living in paradise together for three years with Vincent. also, nice to see that Bernie learned to put the Dharma products on the correct part of the shelf so he won't get yelled at.

t-dot kim said...

Seriously, some of you are nuts. As completely random as the Rose and Bernard scene was. I think the purpose of the scene was to shut ppl up about where they have been.

"Wouldn't the fall kill Juliet?" Umm, yeah in the real world but this is LOST. You can accept the fact that Dark Shirt guy can take the form of a dead John Locke, but can't believe Juliet has one last ounce of strength to set of the bomb?

"Jumped the shark"??! Really??...Really? LOL. Hellllllz no.

I loved it, and can't wait for the next season. I was surprised by the ending because I'm like, "for real??? That's how you're going to end it!!!"

Kid Kate was some great casting by the LOST ppl.

t-dot kim said...

I thought the same thing Herlihy. Season 6 will start with them crashing on the island again. However I don't think everything will be the same because Jacob and Dark Shirt guy won't be effected by the time loop.

Maybe, Dark Shirt guy finally founf the right combination of people to help him kill Jacob...and now, if they do crash on the island--things will play out differently because there is no Jacob this time around.

Ya think??? Crazy crackpot theory by Kim

Thank you. Hold the applause, lol

Ralph- said...

"SAYID = Dead
KATE = Dead
HURLEY = El Mariachi
ROSE & BERNARD = Bickering as usual
MILES = Dead
LOCKE = Pussies Out!
JACOB = WALT!
SUBMARINE = FAKE
JACK = Dead
CHARLIE 1 = Alive
Desmond = Back on the island
BEN = Vincent
SUN & JIN Together = Tears
ME = Excited and sad for the hiatus"

FAIL!

Stephanie said...

Didn't Jorge say we were going to find out what's in the guitar case? Maybe it's in a scene that wasn't used.

Stephanie said...

Ooops. I should have kablamoed.

Will said...

My perdiction is that Jacob is Erin based on a lot of things but partly on the older possible Claire from the supermarket w/ Erin. The whole time travel age thing makes it all relative, I mean they were sitting there as the black rock approached,who knows what's the past and future anymore.

But I was mostly impressed by Jacob's wedding crashing ability, Jacob must have approached Chaz at some time in the past to teach him.
And I think Ben was just upset w/ Jacob b/c he got sick of getting notes demanding more meatloaf. My prediction is that dead Jacob starts crashing funerals.

memphish said...

Per MB, Jorge said we'd find out how he got the case, but not what's in it.

I'm wondering now if the bomb going off doesn't just give everyone a chance at redoing 9/22/04 onward but 1977 onward. Maybe Kate doesn't kill her dad this time around. Maybe Jack doesn't become a doctor. Maybe Sawyer doesn't carry a grudge for 30 years. Maybe Juliet says no to Mittelos.

Holli

JamieB_UK said...

I dont think he ever said we would find out what was i it, just we'd learn more about it. I enjoyed the Rose and Bernard scene for what it was, an explanation of where they've been, not to mention it made me smile. I expected to get the payoff of the scene from the Little Prince with the two rafts out at sea, but my impression was the writers didn't have enough time for everything they wanted.

Don't think Sayids a goner, at least I hope they won't ill him off in such a lame way. Seriously all he did in this finale was stand there and get shot. By Roger! Not sure how next season will start, but the only thing that makes me think it won't begin with the crash again is they won't have the same budget they did with the Pilot and so it would just end up looking like Expose part 2.

oklahaimee said...

My brain is fried from working on my notes for the finale....

You're CRAZY if you didn't like this episode. There are a million different ways you can criticize all the different aspects of the episode (or show), but as far as content, entertainment value, drama, and pure unadulterated psychological torture is concerned, this episode was THE SHIT.

andrew. said...

i'm crazy. OklaHamAimee said so.

andrew. said...

If another show did the 'touched by an Angel' Jacob thing, i'd be intrigued. I like a fair amount of fantasy in my fiction, and i don't doubt that we are now back on the track of LOST's original planned mythology since the backgammon, white stone/black stone stuff factored in pretty early. If this had been the season 1 finale and the show had a 2 season run dealing with Jacob & 'Esau' locked in an eternal struggle about the nature of man, I would have enjoyed the show for what it was. The problem is that I think the show moved into more interesting territory than 'it was all a game played by demigods, what a twist!'

I also think the drama in this episode was sub-par for LOST and it kind of looked like shit.

I did like the part where they rolled Locke's corpse out of the box. That was fun.

I'm just really surprised by everyone saying how insane last night's episode was because it all just struck me as anticlimatic, but i have a habit of really enjoying set-up episodes and being disappointed by their payoff. So i'm not saying that people that liked this are wrong, but i'm thinking it ;)

Kyle from Kentucky said...

I'm thinking that although Locke is dead now that Jacob is dead he will possess Locke's other body making good Locke vs evil Locke really Esau vs Jacob light vs dark good vs evil etc etc.

I liked the Rose and Bernard scene because I feel like they have the damned island figured out moreso than anyone else. Just enjoy being together.

That being said the weird part about Rose and Bernard was the very end "Are you sure you don't want to stay for tea?" - like he KNEW Juliet was not going to live.

I was pretty annoyed that Juliet was still alive because that was such an epic way for her to die but I guess we are all supposed to assume that the bomb did go off there at the very end and she did not survive.

One of my minor questions from the ep is why did Ilana almost get killed before being completely bandaged up in the hospital scene and where did Bram and Ilana and the other 3 people come from? Were they born with Jacob there and they were special?

Frank might be a candidate. A candidate for what? I guess to be the one that is there to save them all which is what Richard said - What lies in the shadow of the statue - 'The one that is here to save us all. ' Or protect us all something like that.

mb said...

"Jumped the shark"??! Really??...Really? LOL. Hellllllz no. as far as content, entertainment value, drama, and pure unadulterated psychological torture is concerned, this episode was THE SHITI agree with my bosses 1000%. The more I think about the episode - the more I like it. I think the finale's and season openers always thrill me to some degree b/c I love how they use them to pull back the curtain more each time, so that your perception of WHAT the show IS about (to some degree) changes each year.

I can see how, if you've been having more and more trouble buying into the story that LOST is telling - as the story gets more and more layered - that you might think that some of the events in this episode were too much, but Aimee's right, as far as WHAT LOST IS, this episode was THE total and complete BOMB (literally and figuratively :) )

As far as Rose and Bernard - I really liked it. Kim's completely right - it was an entertaining and frankly really sweet way to wrap up those characters and not have them just hanging around to deliver a few sometimes funny lines. I think the awkwardness Jordan was referring to was intentional. The scene was kind of stuck in right in the middle of the Sawyer, Juliet and Kate story which was starting to feel urgent - then you get what feels like a roadblock for a scene - but I actually think that was kind of intentional. The scene was meant to put Rose and Bernard's characters to rest (I think), but also to underscore what Rose said about the 815ers constantly struggling. She said (paraphrasing:) "It's always something with you guys", and I think she was making a good point - our Losties do always seem to find themselves with something to struggle against - they're always in dilemma. Rose and Bernard have found their peace - will the rest of the Losties?

Herlihy said...

I was pretty annoyed that Juliet was still alive because that was such an epic way for her to die but I guess we are all supposed to assume that the bomb did go off there at the very end and she did not survive.I don't know much about hydrogen bombs... but i'm pretty sure that if one blows up in your face... you're going to be a bit dead.

JamieB_UK said...

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but I just realised, every time Jacob met someone he touched them. When he gave Jack the Apollo bar, when he payed for Kates lunch box (which is also the same one her plane was buried in), etc. Maybe this explains how everyone survived the crash of 815?

andrew. said...

'du-uh, there's a weird ancient tunnel thing here, what should we do?'
'brick it up. That asshole Radzinski was very specific that every DHARMA bungalo has to have a basement.'

Stephanie said...

We should send '77 VW buses to Iraq.

mb said...

If this had been the season 1 finale and the show had a 2 season run dealing with Jacob & 'Esau' locked in an eternal struggle about the nature of man, I would have enjoyed the show for what it was. The problem is that I think the show moved into more interesting territory than 'it was all a game played by demigods, what a twist!'

Hmmmm. I see what you're saying Andrew, but I guess I don't see where the show ever moved away from the idea that there were always larger forces at work. Every season we've been getting the curtain pulled back more and more to reveal that there are larger things afoot than what we had previously been aware of. Couple that with the Light v. Dark idea that's been hanging out there the whole time, and the bits of info which have pointed to an ancient history - I guess I've always gathered that the island was a place where Godlike forces were at work. But I do see what you're saying.

the weird part about Rose and Bernard was the very end "Are you sure you don't want to stay for tea?" - like he KNEW Juliet was not going to live.

Right on Kyle - I was seriously just about to post about that. That did make me pause a moment when Bernard delivered the line.

memphish said...

Bernard wins the award for best ever hair, head and face, on LOST.

Holli

andrew. said...

The Losties shot and presumably killed a bunch of DHARMA employees on their way to blowing up the Swan (and i guess all of the rest of them when the hydrogen bomb went off). Will their lives be repaired by a reset?
This is a problem i had with Jack promising Elloise that she could undo Faraday's death as well.
Neutralizing the Swan was only going to prevent the crash of 815 (and maybe some other things like Desmond's shipwreck & Henry Gale's balloon?) so presumably, everything that happened up to that point still happened. DHARMA dudes still died, Daniel still got shot. Unless you take a more hardcore approach and say that the Losties then never went back in time in the first place, but then of course they could never blow up the Swan...

Of course, Ajira Airlines 316 proves that the island still had the ability to crash an airplane without the Swan, and this episode seemed to indicate that it was really Jacob bringing people (like the Black Rock) to the island in the first place (which makes me wonder about the science of the Lamp Post station)

JamieB_UK said...

Andrew, I think it was implied that by destroying the energy, it would stop Oceanic 815 crashing which would in turn stop the chain of events that followed from happening. So Daniel wouldn't be killed because he wouldn't be on the freighter, which was looking for 815.

JamieB_UK said...

Actually, now that i've just written that I realise it makes no sense. Even if 815 never crashed, wouldn't the freighter still be sent there, because it was looking for Ben, not the 815 survivors.

Giancarlo said...

Awesome episode! I'm almost positive Juliet doesn't die. They are pulling a Jin on us with her. Also I'm glad that it was proved that Locke was never special but Richard thought so cause of the time traveling Locke and jack told him. And I agree with Kyle with the idea of 2 lockes fighting and I'm almost positive now that rose and Bernard are Adam and eve. Now we wait 9 long months. It was an epic cliffhanger.

mb said...

But the freighties wouldn't have made it onto the island had Jack not called them on the Sat-phone at the end of S.3 ("Through the Looking Glass")

andrew. said...

see these are fun questions to mull over. Did Jacob zap them with magical pixie dust, not so much.

/grouch.

JamieB_UK said...

I guess so, either way dead is dead/whatever happened, happened. I'm pretty sure Juliet is dead, even though I didn't want her to die, her death scene(s) were too good to undermine by bringing her back next season.

mb said...

RE: Rose and Bernard being Adam and Eve -
so they are going to travel back in time (again) at some point and end up in the cave?

mb said...

I meant to end that last post by saying "its possible" - didn't mean to sound like I was shooting the idea down

memphish said...

I don't think Juliet is dead because in 1977 her 10 year old self is learning that her parents are liars. 10 year old Juliet grows up and this time when creepy eyeliner guy shows up she throws herself in front of the bus in order to avoid that ham dinner with Ben Linus.

Actually the bigger problem for me is the rest of the DI folks and Others on Island in their present in 1977. Can a woman give birth to a nerdy scientist after being on an Island where a plutonium core of a hydrogen bomb is exploded? (I guess I should have paid attention in Physics. No. It's still not worth it.) What about an innocence-less boy?

My current working theory is that we're going to see the 815ers, at least the ones that Jacob "touched" making some different choices in their lives prior to 9/22/04, and then it will end with the plane crashing again.

Holli

Herlihy said...

Juliet is dead. Elizabeth Mitchell is one of the main leads in V.

andrew. said...

we see Jacob touch the Losties (i see another risque T-Shirt in the works) at moments in their lives, moments that we already knew about because they were significant enough to the Characters for them to mention them (well, maybe not the shoplifting Kate scene). So why did Jacob choose those moments? At first it seemed like the common thread was that they were youngins but he visited Jack & Locke when they were grown up, and Sayid AFTER he'd been to the island.

(as you can probably tell, i'm starting to soften on my anti-Jacob stance, because, as MB said, a divining power has been hinted at all along. I'm just worried about an unsatisfying ending because the writers throw up their hands and say 'God did it' like a certain other show.)

Holder said...

MB...Rose and Bernard were in 1977...maybe they didn't flash back to present day with everyone else (if that is what happened) and they stayed in 1977.

Maybe you flash to present day if Jacob touched you?

memphish said...

Did Jacob touch Sun or just Jin? Is that why she didn't flash off the plane?

Holli

memphish said...

Hey Andrew and Jordan. I'm starting Season 2 of The Wire this weekend.

Holli

andrew. said...

Enjoy Holli! I really like that season, but it is very different from the rest of the show.

mb said...

Doh! Thanks Holder - I got confused apparently. The only thing that still doesn't jibe is that Jack's estimate of how long Adam and Eve had been decaying in the cave was 40-50 yrs.
Of course, Cuselof could easily say "Well Jack's judgement was off"

t-dot kim said...

Did anyone else notice that Part 1 of the finale was written by Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse, but Part 2 was written by Carlton Cuse and Damon Lindelof. That made me chuckle. Gotta be fair.

Holli, The Wire is awesome. I'd say seasons 1, 4, and 5 are my favs. Season 2 has it's moments.

Kimberly said...

Ky from KY, I agree with you completely!

Kimberly said...

I have been listening to TLI for a few seasons now but these are my first comments.

I enjoyed the episode. I loved seeing Phil die! I thought the Rose and Bernie scene was a little odd but I agree with the person who the more important part of that scene was to further stress that the 815ers were just going to fight and kill each other and it was pointless.

From reading the posts, it seems most people think that the bomb did reset everything and that now 815 never crashed.

I don't think this is true. I think the energy from the bomb propelled or combined with the energy of the swan - or perhaps they neutralized each other - I am no physicist. But anyway, I think what happened is that it just caused our 815ers to flash to the present (2007) time line.

What ever happened, happened. The 815ers caused the incident. Next season I believe we will see Richard watching them from afar as the bomb goes off. He will think they are dead but really they just flashed to the future.

I believe the writers have been showing us 2007 this season along with 1977 this season to confirm that what ever happened, happened. If the bomb meant that 815 never crashed in 2004 then the 2007 we saw would be pointless. There are only 17 episodes left. This is not enough time to redo 5 seasons of Lost.

andrew. said...

word up Kimberly, you're right, 'whatever happened happened' would be the better result of the hydrogen bomb. Jack's going to be a complete mess next season if you're right, and Sawyer might just murder him in the first episode.

memphish said...

I just feel like there's no way they're going to leave us with most time travel stuff though. I'm pretty sure Damon has said as much. The bomb at a minimum had to flash people back to real time. Otherwise I might kill people in the first episode.

Holli

Herlihy said...

If we're going to stand by Whatever Happened, Happened... then surely everyone in '77 died and there's no way of them coming back to life?

As far as i see it, the hydrogen bomb has to have destroyed the electromagnetic activity, thus not needing anyone to push the button or causing the plane to crash. therefore resetting time and the whole time fuckery thing is done because the plane wouldn't have crashed, ben wouldn't have had his tumour removed and moved the donkey wheel so that the people left behind would be jumping through time and getting all friendly with the DI.


I still think they'll crash on the island... but for a completely different reason.

Mir said...

I didn't like that Jacob touched Locke to heal him after the fall. That sort of suggests that he has to touch you to heal you.

When Desmond turned the fail safe key, something weird happened. I am thinking Jules did something similar.

Of course the Lost writers can make up whatever they want, but if the 815ers never landed on the island then the hydrogen bomb wouldn't have gone off in 1977. Faraday wouldn't have told Ellie what to do with the bomb in 1954(?). This is why "whatever happened happened."

It's been foreshadowed by Miles asking everyone what if what they are about to do is cause "the incident."

In addition to the inexplicable paradox of how can they set off the bomb if they're not there, the audience has invested too much in these characters for the writers to just reboot the show as if nothing from season 1-5 happened.

Ben would not have been shot and thus he would not have lost his innocence. Without Ben around Ellie and Charles' leadership roles on the island may have been different. Penny may never have been born. It's cool to wonder what if, but there's too much ground to cover and not enough time to address "the war that is coming."

As much as I hate to say it, I am starting to think the hospital scene was the end of the Desmond/Penny storyline. I wouldn't be surprised if they bring Desmond back some how to pop ratings, but there's really no reason for him to go back to the island.

Assuming "whatever happened happened,"

1. We don't know what happened to the 1977 816ers and co.

2. Will "Esau" keep Locke's form?
I would like to see "Locke" be the new Jacob and Ben be the new leader.

3. Blackrock, what's the deal?
If Jacob is dead, which he should be, they should start next season with Jacob saving the shipwrecked blackrock after it crash landed on the island. They have to show how the ship got to the middle of the island.

4. My biggest question. What is the role of the people off the island on the remainder of the season? (Charles Widmore, Eloise Hawkins, Desmond, Penny, and the Lost Kids).

Kimberly said...

I think the bomb went off but I don't think it killed everyone in 1977. I think the energy from the bomb and then energy from the swan station site just neutralized each other. It caused the 815ers to flash but the bomb did not explode as you would assume a bomb would. From the DI point of view the 815ers disappeared and all the DI who appeared to have died in the incident really did, Chang lost his arm, etc.

Something else I just realized while in the shower. I guess we now know why Richard and the others were concerned with bodies. It is because they did not want Esau to claim it. I think Esau needs a body to be on the Island to become it. We can't say reanimate I guess because Locke's dead body was still there. Christian, Eco's brother, and Locke were all brought to the Island and were unexpected. The others sent the season two dead bodies out to sea on a burning raft. In Season 5 Richard wanted to know where the dead bodies were buried and wanted the DI guys body to do the same I assume. They know Esau's power to claim the bodies and they did not want to give him the chance.

So since they know this, I don't get why Richard was not more suspecting of Locke when he showed up alive on the Island. Maybe by orders from Jacob they know what they are supposed to do with dead bodies but they don't really know the full reason why.

Herlihy said...

OHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

All those times that we saw that the DI had killed a Hostile and they were in a panic and they were told to bury them ASAP...

I wonder if this is to do with this Esau guy because they were trying to prevent him from assuming their form?

Mir said...

"Something else I just realized while in the shower. I guess we now know why Richard and the others were concerned with bodies. It is because they did not want Esau to claim it."

Kimberly, I'm glad you realized this in the shower.

Good point. I hadn't thought of that.

Keep in mind that Richard didn't know Locke had died off island. He found out in the last episode.

Also, it is very possible Jacob just told them what to do with dead bodies and not why.

Lastly, at the start of the episode we saw "Esau" in human form. We are assuming at this point the two are the only people on the island because "Esau" was hating on Jacob from bring people to the island and the whole people good vs. people are evil debate. So it's safe to say "Esau" isn't taking the form of a dead person on the island in that scene.

The real last thing, I found it interesting that Jacob was the one catching fish (wasn't Esau the hunter?). It was kinda cool that Jacob was cooking food when "Esau" showed up.

andrew. said...

what was the "Loophole"?
not-Locke really doesn't do anything except convince Richard to show him the location of Jacob (which he didn't seem to know beforehand) and then convince Ben to kill him.

Mir said...

I think the loop hole was that he can't kill Jacob, but he can convince someone else to kill Jacob.

Kimberly said...

I agree, he had to convince someone else, but not just anyone else - the leader. Ben is still the real leader since the real Locke is dead. Esau needed Ben there to gain access to Jacob. And he convinced Ben to kill Jacob because for some reason he can't.

So I guess the scene in season 4 between Ben and Charles was forshadowing this. I was about to say that leaders could not kill former leaders and this is part of the rules Ben was referring to but then Ben killed Locke and Locke was supposed to be a leader. Unless Locke never really was a leader and that is why Ben could kill him but not Charles.

andrew. said...

i agree. i guess my question is if Locke's personage was relevant, or if it was just a matter of convincing Ben (or anyone else) to kill him.

Obviously Ricardus trusted Locke and that was important since he had never shared Jacob's real location to Ben.

I just wonder if Christian Shephard layed the same 'you're unappreciated' rap on Ben, and convinced him to kill Jacob and Ben found out that Jacob was hanging out in the base of the statue if that would have been enough.

Herlihy said...

the season 5 neck stabbing was not nearly as cool as the season 4 neck stabbing

JamieB_UK said...

I wonder how Desmonds story is gonna play into season 6? Didn't even realise he was missing in the finale until a few hours after I saw it.

Also possible t-shirt slogans?:
I was touched by Jacob...
Where did Jacob touch you

PalmerEldritch said...

the Island is magic. a hydrogen bomb detonating doesnt necessarily mean nuclear/atomic fallout or even an explosion of any worth.

the smoke munster ate it. jacob whisked it to another time. the electromagnetic pull of the swan hatch "ate it." who knows?

also, while it being Jacob and Esau sounds good from a "everything's a biblical allegory standpoint" and the writers' do sometimes make biblical references, it isnt naturally a slam dunk that some guy sitting on a beach with a dude named Jacob is necessarily named Esau.

dude could be named Buddy or Cornelius or Bob for all we know at this point.

and are we yet sure that Jacob is a good guy? or a bad guy? so far, he's just some guy that goes around getting kids out of trouble for stealing, fueling a life of murderous revenge, getting a doctor a chocolate bar, giving a dude a guitar, letting a guy live to watch his wife get hit by a car and die, and resurrecting the defenestrated.

and he keeps bringing people to his Island to have them play Thunderdome. seemingly for his amusement or to prove some other dude wrong.

but he was wearing white and likes to loom, so it's probable that he's the good guy. but he could be the bad guy. or they could both be bad guys. or just jerks. who knows?

here's a question. did "jacob's enemy" trick the Island? is that why Smokey protected him from Ben? or did Smokey KNOW that it was Jacob's Enemy in a Locke-Suit? has jacob subjugated the Island to his will? are Smokey and Jacob's Enemy in cahoots to free the Island?

who was in Horace's cabin? was that Jacob? or Jacob's Enemy?

who is Christian Shephard's apparition working for? Jacob? Smokey? the Island? Jacob's Enemy?

Why does Christian/Jacob's Enemy/Smokey/The Island got Claire?

Why does whoever Christian's apparition seem to think that Sun can get to the Time-Fuckers? part of a long con to get Sun to help get Ben to the Magic Foot to stab Jacob?

Why is Jacob so fantastically powerful that he can live hundreds of years, grant eternal life to his mascaraed friends, and appear all over creation helping kids get New Kids on the Block lunchboxes yet he just dies like a chump when Ben stabs him?

i expect all these answers in the official lost podcast immediately following the season 6 finale in 2010.

oh. and i'm hoping what we saw was just "The Incident." it seems likely to me cuz the episode was named "The Incident." then our Time-Fuckers get whisked away leaving Marv with a crippled arm and Stewie with an insatiable need to hook up an Apple II to a timer with some heiroglyphics.

what's frank a candidate for??? wtf? a candidate to be inhabited by something? a candidate to work for Richard and The Jacobites?

did Ilana use to be a leper? just get her face messed up in a horrible boot accident?

is Jacob's Enemy the Smoke Munster? it seemed like the Others (and Ben) feared it cuz they used a Sonic Fence to keep it out of New Otherton. or is the Smoke Munster just a "security system?"

good thing we have 9 months to hash all this out. and then be horribly wrong with our predictions.

Holder said...

In the opening scene where we first see Jake and the bad man, Jacob says something like (and I am summarizing), "When you find your loophole, I'll be right here."

"Right here" could have been literal, meaning where they were sitting...outside the statue on the beach. So when Ben kills Jacob, maybe Jacob was actually outside? Maybe he was Richard at that point? Or one of the other people standing outside? I'm finding it hard to explain what my theory is here but I think you get the idea.

Ryan said...

I heard on the most recent official podcast Darlton say that after this episode we should be able to make very educated guess as to where the show is headed. Once I witnessed the opening scene I knew he wasn't kidding.

It seems all the ideas I have heard that "this is a just a game" and "dark vs Light" seem to be very true. After that scene with Jacob and his "enemy" I had this picture go off in my head as to what the ending of the show might be.

I imagined seeing that same conversation between Jacob and his "enemy" happening and instead of the seeing the blackrock, they see another group of "survivors" heading towards the Island. Leading to believe the same game is about to begin, just new pieces.

Oh and on a side note.....I immediately thought that it was the blackrock that ends up shooting the statue. Wild guess, but I'm trying to imagine why the whole statue wouldn't be still standing in the present. Who knows.

At least we only have to wait 8 months to find out. :p