Wednesday, April 08, 2009

Post Episode Discussion: Dead Is Dead

134 comments:

Mr. Bill said...

Oneced!

andrew. said...

'we don't even have a name for it.'

t-dot kim said...

Ben! Up to his old tricks!

Mr. Bill said...

Un Bebe

Kablamo!

Trevor McFur said...

Haha. 2nd time this season they killed a guy just as I was starting to think, "They should kil this idiot."

JoeSC said...

Okay... initial thoughts...

Ben's excuse for killing Locke shouldn't have flown, but he is just so damn convincing... Michael Emerson rules!

Oh, and speaking of Michael Emerson ruling... Sawed off shotgun? Didn't see that one coming. Fucking awesome!

Is the Ben / Alex picture the new Desmond / Penny picture? Seriously doubt it... still kinda creepy, though.

Trevor McFur said...

How about Youngish Ben's sassy haircut!

Mr. Bill said...

Apology?

More like Apologeez!

Trevor McFur said...

This is a good episode.

Not sure how it's gonna turn out, but nice to see some of that old Locke mojo in action.

Trevor McFur said...

Ha! Nice to see Ben getting a pummeling at the hands of Dez.

JoeSC said...

Penny's alive?
Ben was gonna kill Locke again?
Alex(?!?) kicks Ben's ass and gives him marching orders?

I think I need to change my pants now...

No question about it... this was the absolute best episode of the season!

I like Lost.

JBD said...

Great episode until the last 3 ridiculous minutes.

Like an exact opposite of "He's Our You".

memphish said...

I'm a little disappointed in the episode, but frankly a part of that is the fact that our local affiliate was having technical difficulties so I didn't get HD and the sound track was skipping.

I think I suffered from what I might in fact suffer from the rest of the series and that's the answers just not being as much fun as the questions.

The hair in the episode was out of control. I think it calls for a return from the Dharmalars just to discuss the hair issues. The Middle-Aged Charles was ridonculous on every level. Can they not get people with accents to accept a trip to Hawaii? Dude had about 3 lines and each one was in a different accent.

I'll admit that the Penny scene got to me. Thank goodness the Island isn't done with Desmond.

I did like how the Smoke became Alex like it became Yemi and kicked Ben's butt around, but then he repented.

I also seriously hope that Juliet shot the hell out of that bitch Ilana on the outrigger. She and her storyline have got to go. I guess she works for Widmore? Was her question the "what did one snowman say to the other equivalent?" Who cares.

Holli

Trevor McFur said...

Did Smokey laugh at Ben? It sounded like the Predator when it laughed at Arnold. I wonder if Ben will listen this time.

I think it's funny that you call the Smoke Monster by flushing the island's toilet.

And what's Illana up to?

Trevor McFur said...

I wonder if Ben will listen and not kill Locke this time.

Trevor McFur said...

Good call Holli. Didn't even realize that the difference between Ben and Eko was that Eko was unrepentant for his role in Yemi's death. Still don't get why Eko survived the first time he met Smokey though.

Why was Ben meeting Smokey and seeing his past so much cheesier looking then when Eko met Smokey and saw his past?

memphish said...

It was totally cheesy, but Eko did see those guys he killed in the jungle, so it was somewhat similar. It was so Dorothy in the tornado though. I really didn't like the way they did that artistically.

Holli

Trevor McFur said...

It was similar, but Eko's was much simpler and much cooler-looking then tonight. Dorothy in the tornado is dead-on, that's exactly what it looked like. Did they think that we wouldn't know it was looking at him and Alex without a 'This Is Your Life' style montage?

Mr. Bill said...

What lies in the shadow of the statue?

Toes?
Darkness?
Jacob?
Tacos?
Pineapples?
Boobies?

any ideas?

memphish said...

Actually, the Orchid lies in the shadow of the statue.

That's where the time flashers were when they saw it.

Holli

morgan said...

I agree Holli, the wigs were the worst they've ever been on Lost. I found myself laughing throughout the whole episode.

t-dot kim said...

"What lies in the shadow of the statue?"

Is that a code to see if you work for Charles Widmore?

memphish said...

I figure it's the "What did one snowman say to the other" equivalent.

But still the answer is The Orchid.

Holli

t-dot kim said...

I HATED the last scene of the episode. The chick that plays Alex is a horrible actress--and that shit with the smoke swirling around Ben was bullshit. What an anticlimactic way to close out a pretty decent episode.

JBD said...

@t-dot kim, I couldn't agree with you more.

Alirio said...

I love LOST

PalmerEldritch said...

yeah, the Ben gets "judged" scene was pretty hokey. but so is a dude crawling under a secret temple to be judged by a magical smoke munster. so, i was expecting a level of hokiness. maybe not quite the level we got.

yeah. was Alex heavily dubbed in at the end there?

Cesar getting hosed was FANTASTIC.

Illana works for WiddyCent?

some really fun lines and performances in the episode. both Ben and Locke got to do some cool stuff. from conning Cesar to pissing off Ben.

we wants more Desmond on our TV, damnit!

Brad said...

Is Locke the Smoke Monster now? Because that would be pretty bad-ass. Seriously.

Also Sally Slingshot = Hot. Fact.

andrew. said...

i wasn't too into the episode. I agree that it's the case of the questions sparking the collective imagination of the audience that outpaces the mundane answers we get. Imagine the season 1 scenes with Danielle going on and on about the Others stealing her baby knowing that it was really just Ben coming into her bamboo shack in the middle of the night with a pistol.
still i like lost. It just feels like Stargate sometimes.

- thumBenlina remembers his pops but not the Losties (like when he later saw the Dharma '77 yearbook photo). okay.

- i was enjoying the Unusuals until they stole the lie detector gag from The Wire and then broke into the storage locker of exposition.
- Oh shit! Dookie!

Trevor McFur said...

"What lies in the shadow of the statue?"

Jizz?

PalmerEldritch said...

true say, trevor. true say.



did i just rip off kim? rip off from the best, i guess!


i'm VERY relieved that Ben didn't shoot Penny or BabyCharliepants. but he sure did shoot the fuck out of Desmond's carton of milk. and that pissed Desmond off.

t-dot kim said...

"True say"

I think it's a Canadian thing...

JoeSC said...

At least we got confirmation that Penny wasn't born on the island...

Ben made mention of the fact that Widmore frequently left the island and had a child with an "Outsider,"...

I never bought into the "Penny was born on the island" theory...

t-dot kim said...

I'm on the fence with this episode. It was very good for 50 min, then lost me. Ceasar getting shot was a total shock, and what's up with Ilana and the poor man's Hurley taking charge? I knew Desmond wasn't dead...no way he'd go out like that. Although I was hoping Penny would have been shot and killed. Stupid kid had to stick he nose out--ugh.

The wigs on this show are getting out of hand. How old was Ben supposed to be when he took Alex? 15? He looked 45 in a bad wig. Oh wait, probably because he IS 45 and wearing a bad wig.

So, Ben took Alex--Danielle saw his face. Why didn't she take care of him when he was "captured" in one of her traps? Why didn't she take care of him when he was tied up when she met Alex for the first time?

This show is confusing

JoeSC said...

I agree Kim... I think the last 5 minutes or so were a little too cheesy for my liking, but the rest of the episode was as strong as Lost has been all season...

..Or it could just be that I'm a huge Locke / Ben / Desmond fan and I was going through some heavy withdrawal.

Holder said...

Yeah, I agree...the Smokey scene at the end was extremely weird and cheesy. Ilana is insanely hot. This show needs more Ilana. "What lies in the shadow of the statue" made me freak out. I think that just sounds so cool. I'm 99% sure the guy with Ilana was on October Road.

Is anyone else tired of Sun? I just don't care anymore.

Jordan from the 206 said...

The episode was fine for me. Wasn't awesome. Wasn't horrible.

Gotta echo Palmer's comments about the whole idea of everything that was happening being kinda hokey and cheesy from the get go. Not sure exactly how you don't watch some of that stuff and it not feel as such. Yeah, Ben's whirlwind down memory road was goofy. But it was a cloud of smoke judging whether or not he gets to live.

Didn't have a problem with the Alex scene. Yeah, it was goofy as well. But it's the smoke monster manifesting itself through someone dear to Ben.

Speaking of Alex. Grrrrrowwww! I'm always talking about the dearth of fetching females on this show. And the return of Alex enforces my theory. The reminder of what a hot female looks like makes me feel like Buster on Arrested Development. When he sees Gob's girlfriend Marta and realizes that she is way better looking than his gf (Liza Minella). To quote Buster Bluthe, "I've been dating an old lady!"

As for "will Ben hold true to his promise about not killing Locke". I gotta believe the only reason Smokey allowed him to live was because he was truly repentant. I don't think this was the case at first. Hence the reason for Smokey/Alex really putting the screws to ol' Bennie Boy. Had Ben not really meant it, I don't think he'd still be around. Unless he REALLY is a good liar. lol.

What is it about Michael Emerson, that he in NO WAY whatsoever can play a day younger than he actually is. Every time he's played a slightly younger Ben (like when he killed his father), it's just come off terrible. It always feels like a goofy SNL sketch where Steve Martin is pretending to be 15 and it's believable because he's wearing a wig and "talking like a young kid!" No. Something about Michael Emerson's face is VERY whatever age current day Benjamin Linas is. No matter how earnest and eager he tries to look.

Holli was complaining about middle aged Charles and his accent. Maybe I just didn't give a shit about his accent. But I thought he was a very solid choice. At least face wise. Never once did I have a problem looking at that actor and thinking it was a younger Widmore. Unlike with the younger Rousseau, who is just too round in the face for me. And speaking of the middle-aged Widmore. "The name is Charles. Charles, I say. Charles WIDMORE!!! GET IT?!"

As for Desmond and Penny. I'm really trying to find a nicer way to say what I'm thinking. But it's just not coming. Are you people idiots?! Honestly, really? How gullible do you gotta be to really think they'd kill either Desmond or Penny? At least by Ben in that scene. I remember saying back when the show so blatantly tried to misdirect people to think Ben killed Penny, telling everyone that in no way was Penny dead. One, that it didn't seem to be somewhere the show would go (too dark given the cuddliness of the whole Pesmond story). Two, that it would be far too anticlimactic. And three, that it was just too obvious. I honestly hate being the "told you so" guy. But I just don't know how anybody who has seen enough tv dramas and who knows this show, could have ever for a moment been fooled or scared by that so obvious red herring. One thing I will say though. Is that the writers did a semi-decent job is continuing to sell it with Ben's, "Tell Desmond I'm sorry" line. Still didn't fool me. But definitely made me go, "hmmmm" for a moment. Sorry for being utterly obnoxious here. I don't know why. But for whatever reason, anytime I've heard someone on a podcast or read someone on the internet buy into the "Did Ben kill Penny" thing, I just angered me. Feel I can finally vent. Obnoxious self-congratulatory rant over.

Whoa! @ Cesar eating his own sawed-off shotgun! Wow. Didn't see that coming. Nor coming this quick and out of nowhere. And it sure seems that we were a bit duped in being made to think that he was the Widmore plant. Where as now it sure seems like Ilana fills the role.

As some have already mentioned in this thread (and some of us in previous weeks), I think it's just a fact at this point. Getting questions and vague intrigue is much more enjoyable/strictly "LOST" than when we get mostly answers/information. We could delve deep into what it is exactly about people's psyches and how certain types of episodes affect the brain/get the gears turning. But I think it's obvious at this point. But it's expected for the show to have to change course at this point in the game. I just enjoy pointing this seemingly fact because how info-thirsty and answer demanding so many of the fans have been over the years. All this time they thought that's what they really wanted. People are conditioned to always focus on what they don't have. To want to jump to the end of the book. Only to find out that it was the questions themselves and the journey that was the true gift. I'm too tired to make my point well enough right now. But there is something truly poetic in all of it when you really think about it. I'm sure there's some fitting proverbs about appreciating what you got when you got it, and enjoying the present and not always looking ahead. But I'm too tired to think that hard.

Jordan from the 206 said...

And as for The Unusuals. I randomly stopped on it for about 3 minutes. In which I saw Michael from Lost, McManus from Oz, and Dookie from The Wire. Still not enough to get me to watch. Doesn't look like anything more than yet another "so what" cop show. The networks are so in love with copy shows right now, it's really just ridiculous. And to hear that they ripped off the copier bit from The Wire (also was used in a Homicide ep. but both were David Simon shows, and the bit was lifted from his book, "Homicide", so..). No thanks.

Holder said...

Yeah, we're aware that Lost does some far out things, but I think the complaint here is that the VISUAL EFFECTS were kind of shitty. It could have been cool, but it LOOKED bad.

Kyle from Kentucky said...

when it comes to Desmond if Ben had killed Penny there I could totally see how the island wouldn't be done with des and he would be coming there for vengance on Ben. But since he just got his ass kicked then left, then I am really interested to see what could possibly draw him back in..

I was pretty disappointed with the last 3 minutes but it wasn't that bad. The talking that Alex gave to ben was nice on paper she just couldn't pull it off very well..

mb said...

more things to say tomorrow...


"what lies in the shadow of the statue?"

the Donkey Wheel

I think Illana and co. could be from Widmore or I'm thinking could be a new entity who have been trying to find the island, but either way - it is the begining of THE WAR that Widdy spoke of.
The Others ARE finally going to become "the good guys" and will protect the island.

Mr. Bill said...

What is up with Billy Bob?

Kablamo!

Stephanie said...

So, the Island actually wanted Ben to kill Alex when she was a baby just as Charles commanded?

JonFromNKY said...

Trevor said "Still don't get why Eko survived the first time he met Smokey though."

I think the second time Eko met smokey, he got what he wanted. All he wanted was to get back to Yemi. Yemi was dead. Smokey gave him what he wanted. If you recall the end of "The Cost of Living" showed Eko and Yemi walking away with Yemi arm and arm. It was kind of a happy moment for an overall sad episode.

I'm still torn on this episode. I liked it, but it seemed to be a lot of back story crammed into one episode with not much elaboration on points that we all have been wanting. I guess that's the cost of the story coming to an end.

aimee in little rock said...

For the record, I cried during this episode. I'm only too ashamed to admit at what part.

memphish said...

I'm going to rewatch today, but I have a feeling I'm going to like it even less because of the implausibility factor. So Desmond and Penny did sail that boat from London to LA. Really? I feel like do a "Really with Seth and Amy" from SNL.

I still can't figure out whether or not they took Alex pre or post Purge. If it's pre-Purge, why would you send the 2 people who had to sneak across the Island to get to your Yurts, then sneak to Rousseau, then back to the Yurts, then back to Dharmaville and be expected to stay awake in school the next day?

Widmore's timeline doesn't make sense either. He's being banished in 1992 judging by Alex's age. If he's being banished for fathering Penny, the Island is 10-20 years too late on that one. And Charles, you don't get 20 years when you subtract 1992 from either 2004 or 2007.

But the real thing I can't figure out is why Charles doesn't just come back to the Island himself if he's sending various proxies. Seems like Henry Gale got there, the freighter got there, and now Ilana's new band of mercs, not to mention your son-in-law. Does Charles really want to get back or simply to keep other people from playing with his toy?

And what's the deal with Jacob (now channeling Seinfeld). He got invoked several times tonight and it seemed like lies, so why are these people buying it? What's Jacob done for you that you believe in him?

So glad I didn't listen to the OLP before last night. That thing was totally spoilery in terms of what questions would be resolved.

Holli

memphish said...

And I agree about Alex's look. She looked good.

Holli

Mr. Bill said...

Desmond to Ben

"And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my family. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you."

Well said...with his fists.

Mr. Bill said...

Do you like fishsticks?

Mr. Bill said...

Just so you know.

PalmerEldritch said...

i guess that Desmond and Penny started sailing a bit earlier than we were made to believe. eh? i'm cool with that. it's a tad weird though but i guess that he doesnt want to leave Penny and Charlie alone. still, it would have been nice to have some establishment of the Desmond timeline being a little bit earlier than the O6 timeline.

i think Widdy got banished after having been discovered to have been going to the real world for years (perhaps 10 or 20 years). this also gives more credibility to him having a multi-million dollar company. why you'd sneak off of JizzIsland to do that, i'm not quite sure. maybe he just really liked network tv?

i think Chuckles didnt come back to the Island because he's not "allowed" and/or not able to find it. it's a magic island. if it doesn't want him there, it won't let him. it took Ben getting the O6 back together to get him to the Island.

memphish said...

So do you think if Widmore had gotten himself on Ajira flight 316 he too would have returned to the Island or that the Island would have thwarted him and they'd have gone to Guam after all?

Holli

memphish said...

Why did they go to all the trouble and expense for young Charles Widmore to arrive on a horse?

Holli

memphish said...

Ilana's giant crate is an overgrown version of the original Marsha's Haliburton case. Compensate much?

Holli

PalmerEldritch said...

yeah, i think Widdy could have snuck back on the Island if he'd have gone with the Oceanic 6.

actually, your ability to get back to the Island really depends on whether the writers think it'd be "cool" or not. :)

Rrb said...

Does any one else feel like the writer strike is still on? Things are rushed when they don't need to be. It's like there still Drunk off of Last Year?

Rrb said...

As I am you both make a crap load of sense thanks Palmer for the Desmond time line 1 or 2 years earlier?
Holli .Widmore in a crate:)
It sounded like he has been trying. Maybe he was realy BANISHED. He did tell John he Turned the donkey wheel,? Didn't he? Little fuzzy on that fact.
I think Ben might have been more scared of Smokey to go back vs.Not allowed? Damm I'm confusing myself.

So did anyone else think that if you didn't pass the test of looking at the picture of Dog head Human looking at Squiggily lines you would be Harpooned by 108 Deadly Darts:)I sure did.
I thought Frank was done and off the show and no! Gun butt to the head, hog tie him, He's still good for a laugh!

BIG BOX? TWSS:) Lu-anna-lucia whatever? Is all like I know about the statue?

aimee in little rock said...

Memphish, here's some timeline help:

1937 - Widmore is born.

1954 - Widmore meets Locke for the first time (he is 17 years old, as he recalls to Locke after their meeting in Tunisia)

12/19/1964 - Ben Linus is born.

1973 - Ben Linus arrives on the island.

1977 - Ben Linus is shot, and raped in the Temple.

1988 - Rousseau arrives on the island, and Alex is born & kidnapped (Ben is 24 this Dec.)

12/19/1992 - The Purge (Ben states it is his 28th birthday.)

UNKNOWN - Widmore is exiled. We know it happened AFTER but AROUND 1992. We know that it's post-Purge because they live in the Barracks. Alex is 4 years old in 1992, so it's a close call. The child on the swing looked about 4-6 years old.

Our Mutual Friend - Desmond & Penny sail from the UK to LA prior to Mrs. Hawking's 70 hour notice. It's never revealed in Desmond's scenes "when" it is. The Island made sure Desmond had his dreamy visions at the appropriate time to give him adequate sailing time.

I even did a little research on sailing, and assuming they paid the $20k to pass thru the Panama Canal, sailing at a fast 10 knots would still take a over a month to make that trip.

memphish said...

Good research Aimee. In thinking back on it, Desmond's memory et al had to occur a few days before Locke left the Island. Locke probably took about a month to travel the world and be murdered, so I'm feeling a little bit better about the sailing thing -- except for the fact that Desmond wanted to get this errand over with and get on with his life. So taking a month to sail to LA doesn't make the most sense.

I've also seen people speculate that it took the left on Island Others some time (years) to discover or care about the fact that Charles broke the rules in fathering Penny, assuming that was indeed the rule broken. It's a little vague. After all the 2004 Others had no idea what all Ben had been up to in terms of his own off Island jaunts. Seems the leaders aren't all that up front with their followers.

I'm wondering now who fathered Daniel, an insider or an outsider. Was Ellie banished too? Or is it only your mother who counts like in Judaism?

Holli

aimee in little rock said...

Desmond's dream occurred in the present time-ish, because little Charlie was already a toddler.

PalmerEldritch said...

huh. that sounds familiar, rrb. did Charles say he had spun the frozen donkey wheel?

so, they banish him by taking him to the sub and turning around to bring him to the orchid??



also, if you hit $1 when you spin the Frozen Donkey Wheel, do you win a space in the Showcase Showdown?

aimee in little rock said...

Just checked the transcript for 5x06, and no, Widmore never states he spun the wheel. He just states how he was "exiled" by Ben.

PalmerEldritch said...

phew. aimee, you are researchlicious today. fantastic!

aimee in little rock said...

BAM! The resident nerd strikes again.

PalmerEldritch said...

yes. because no one else here has any nerdy tendencies. especially not me.

was Widmore banished because he started refusing to wear the requisite bad wigs?

aimee in little rock said...

I don't know, but that young Widmore on horseback with his whole Aragorn thing going on was freaking hot. Still a babykilling douchebag, but hot. I'll take 1977 Widmore over Alpert any day.

mb said...

He [Jacob] got invoked several times tonight and it seemed like lies, so why are these people buying it?

Not saying your wrong, but what seems like lies?



What's everyone's (the blogspot's) general opinion of Ben now? Any redemption yet in anyone's eyes. Any empathy? For me this episode BEGAN the process of explaining some of his actions in a way that garnered empathy.
He's still a bastard for some of the shit he pulled on the 815ers, but considering that his predecessor (Widmore) would have killed them immediately, he seems a little less evil.
In fact, I'm not sure I can use "evil" to describe him anymore (in light of his responsibility to protect the island). Mostly just a really serious liar. Though he has killed people - so I don't know.

memphish said...

Ben's a lying piece of crap with Mommy issues. The way he immediately started manipulating the 316ers against Locke really made me mad at him.

As for the Jacob stuff, Richard tells Charles Jacob told him to save Ben. Unless Jacob has a ponytail and freckles, I don't see how that could be. Same with Ben invoking Jacob in Charles' banishment. I don't understand why the Others take it on apparently blind faith a) that this guy exists and b) that he has their interests at heart and should be followed. There better be an entire episode of Jacob flashbacks coming or else I've got a bridge to sell these people. Jacob told me to.

Holli

mb said...

It's a good blogspot day when we get to witness Aimee's information gathering/retention talents. NERDS RULE!

mb said...

Ben's a lying piece of crap with Mommy issues

NO doubt. But is he evil?

Jordan from the 206 said...

I think the episode was trying to tell us that Ben isn't exactly evil. At least that is what I think we were meant to believe during Ben's Wizard of Oz moment with Smokey. It specifically showed him standing up to Widmore to save the baby. IMO this was meant to show that was a reason that Smokey was giving Ben the opportunity to redeem. That act was what the island liked and why he gets this one last chance. And not that the island wanted him to kill the baby as someone said earlier. That was just Widmore.

Jordan from the 206 said...

So he isn't "EVIL", but he sure isn't trustworthy. I think it's going to be fun to watch Ben be forced to follow Locke (which I do think he is going to do). Because we know how inherently manipulative he is. As we saw with the 316 people, lying is what comes natural. And we also saw Ben admit to Locke that he doesn't enjoy not being in control. But now he is going to be forced to play nice and follow the ways of John Locke. Or Smokey will take back his free pass. Should be interesting.

Chris JC said...

I bet I know where Aimee cried. It was in the Smokey Visions bit, wasn't it?

aimee in little rock said...

Guilty.

My girly dramatic hormones were torn between my love for cheesy drama, my fear of losing Michael Emerson from the show, and my love for hating Ben. Plus I made out with him twice, so there's some sort of creepy unnatural subsconscious attraction to evil.

Tommytheduck said...

Ben to Penny: "hello, my name is Benjamin Linus..."

Anyone else expecting "you killed my daughter, prepare to die" ?

aimee in little rock said...

Tommy, I was thinking the same exact thing!!! I had just watched the Princess Bride on Tuesday (and irritated the crap out of my boyfriend by reciting the film word for word).

Inigo Montoya rules!

aimee in little rock said...

BTW, I just read an incident report from yesterday where someone's Pug was stolen/kidnapped right out of their yard!

Aimee has upgraded her vigilance factor to Defcon 2...

memphish said...

But if Alex wasn't supposed to die, why didn't the Island save her? Something saved Penny. That's the whole problem with Whatever Happened, Happened is that we have no choice. Or maybe only the leaders of the Others have choices. Free will makes my head hurt.

Holli

mb said...

I realized I haven't really said unequivocally that I REALLY liked this episode. Smokey/OZ tornado scene and all - which I thought was obviously trying to purposefully look like the OZ tornado - just clunkily done (like several things/reveals this season). I still thought it was emotionally potent.
I was satisfied that we FINALLY got the episode that starts rounding out Ben as a human character who has SOME understandable motivations for all the crap he's pulled.
Still a bastard (as Widmore is) but his character picture is actually starting to make sense instead of just leaving me being frustrated with him.

memphish said...

Ben said to Penny that her father was a bad, bad man, but we still haven't seen Widmore do any of the bad stuff we've seen Ben do. He was involved in that beating. He ordered Ben and Ethan to kill Danielle, but then Ben ordered Ryan, Tom, et al to kill any 815ers that got in their way when they raided the beach camp, not to mention ordering Locke to kill his own father in front of children. He just shot Cesar point blank. What has convinced Ben that Widmore is so bad he needs to be banned from the Island and punished in the real world? Ben's ability to justify his own actions to himself while cutting no slack to anyone else has him on my annoying list. Almost up there with pre-no I'm not going to save him Jack. Unlike Kate I like the new Jack.

Holli

aimee in little rock said...

Widmore had a baby with a Muggle. Eeeeeevil.

memphish said...

Don't the Others know about the dangers of inbreeding?

Scary fact from that article, Egyptian brothers and sisters mating. I'm so sick of those theories, but they may have legitimacy. Boone and Shannon were a clue all along.

Holli

mb said...

I'm not sure what the whole message from smokey was supposed to be.

It kind of seems like the island allowed Ben to have Alex, but was unwilling to save her. It's almost like the island said - "OK dude, this girl is YOUR responsibility" and when he tried playing head games with Keamy and assumed the island was going to save her, he abdicated his responsibility to caring for Alex (which includes protecting her), so the island said "nope" and let her die.

mb said...

and.... (almost forgot)
RE: Penny - I guess you could say the island intervened by bringing little Charlie up on deck at the right moment, & that's what saved Penny (the island knew Ben wasn't going to kill her with a child present, just like Rousseau.

mb said...

Also,
I totally thought that this guy was this guy (from Further Instructions). Alas, it seems not.

memphish said...

The Scott and Steve Blogspot -- still trying to make Further Instructions not suck.

Holli

PalmerEldritch said...

Further Instructions: At Least It Didn't Have Bai Ling

Herlihy said...

Oh. I've not posted here today.

I liked this episode. Alot. Apart from a few things.

The scene where Ben took Alex. Aside from the whole crazy ass-wig on Ben, something just didn't seem right. Something like that should have been much more dramatic than a scene that seemed nothing more than throwaway. I really didn't like it. It idn't have the gravitas that i thought it should have had.

Ben inside the tornado/smoke monster was cool but it could have been done a lot better. I'd have preferred it if they stuck to the same style of judgement that Eko hadd the first time. where he only saw screenshots in the smoke monster rather than a blurry montage of scenes.

Other than that, i was pretty okay with everything the episode had to offer.

I really liked Alex being the smoke monster. I thought that scene was awesome.

And that photo of Ben and Alex looked like a really ba photoshop. Almost as bad as Mrs. Hawking and the Monk way back in Season 3's Catch 22.

30 year old Widmore looked hot. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED THERE?!?!!?

Chris JC said...

It might be hard for other folks who used to watch Neighbours to accept that being their attempt at mid-point Widmore. I guess they figured we wouldn't accept crazy ash blonde afro

Although, when we saw Alan Dale on the island (which, by the way, was cool) I enjoyed the hair choice they went with.

Despite the comments earlier about Emerson not being able to play younger (and going by the age of Ethan I'm guessing he was meant to be about late twenties but probably a little over thirty) - people generally assume Ben Linus to be in his forties, and yet Emerson himself is fifty-four.

PalmerEldritch said...

in honor of the Doctor Who Easter Special, i present:

girls dressed as daleks!


did everyone dig the pic of Smokey and Anubis hanging out in the temple? crazy stuff.

mb said...

See, now the Daleks, as a conquering race, could take a page out of the Cylons playbook and work on their appearance. It would make universal domination go a whole lot smoother.


RE: smokey and Anubis - I was nerderifically enraptured by the whole temple basement

Herlihy said...

I did actually say out loud "what is smokey doing to Anubis". I'm not even that well versed in who Anubis is yet I still recognised him... I'm confused as to how though.

Aiden said...

Live TLI today?

Tha Kid said...

Wow. What a let down.

I accidently was spoiled on the synopsis of this episode 2 weeks ago and I have been looking forward to it since and this is it?

This might be a case of having high hopes, but last nights episode was shit.

Initially I liked the episode, but as I watched it a second time I really see it for the crap it is.

"What lies in the shadow . . ."
WTF? Let's create new bullshit to deal with.

We know Ben is evil, but why the fuck did he blast Ceasar? That entire scene didn't make sense. First he's working against Locke. Then when they come because of what Ben said Ben doesn't say no I agree with Locke blah blah, he acts as if Locke is insane and is forcing him to go. Then he blasts Ceasar?

The smoke monster scene was the worst. I expected Alex to at least kill Ben, but no. How was Mr. Ecko worse than Ben?

Last, they try to get us to soften up to Ben by showing what a SOB CW is. News flash, we all knew CW is a mo fo.

And finally don't get me started on the tell Desmond I'm sorry line. Wow! Any normal person would say, tell Desmond I'm sorry for shooting him. I understand from a writing stand point it builds suspense as to what he did to apologize for, but ahhh.

They didn't really explain what Charles did. Was it that he left the island a lot? If so, didn't Ben leave the island a lot? Why wasn't he banished?

I could go on. I haven't read what others thought of this episode yet. I'll do that now.

Herlihy said...

Aiden - No, there's no TLI recording tonight because of schedule conflicts or something, apparently they might be recording tomorrow night though, so keep a look out on Twitter or myspace or even on here.

mb said...

"What lies in the shadow . . ."
WTF? Let's create new bullshit to deal with.


I said this earlier, but I'm pretty sure Illana and co. mobilizing w/weapons and asking a question like "What lies in the shadow of the Statue" before knocking Frank out is the beginning of "the War" that Widdy mentioned to Locke in "The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham". Whether they are there on Widmore's orders or they represent a new entity on the show, they are obviously not there by accident and certainly seem hostile.

mb said...

Also, It now seems clear (to me at least), that Illana & co. were the ones shooting at Sawyer and Juliet in "The Little Prince". Wonder who got capped.

memphish said...

So you think Ilana represents some faction we've yet to see? Because she certainly wasn't acting like Locke was on her side like I'd expect her to if she was Widmore's employee.

Holli

Herlihy said...

In my eyes, I don't know about anyone elses, but it could possibly be that Ilana are part of the new and reconstituted Dharma Initiative. Trying to get rid of all the hostiles/others on the island as some sort of retribution of the purge.

But that's just my perspective on things.

mb said...

I don't know who Illana & co. are. I'm leaning toward NOT Widmore's people, mainly based on Widmore's disclosure to Locke that the war is coming and Widmore wants John on-island (I assume to lead the Others instead of Ben) so that the "right" side will win (his quote is that if John ISN'T there, "the wrong side will win"). So I'm assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that Widmore is on John and the Others side.
And based on Illana's behavior toward Locke which, as you said, was not in keeping with a Widmore employee, I'm thinking they are something else. I think Herlihy's idea of the reconstituted DI is a good one.

Tha Kid said...

Glad that I'm not the only person who had issues with this episode.

I did enjoy Desmond beating the crap out of Ben. Reminded me of when Jack did it. The elbow to the face was crazy. I don't understand how that injured Ben's arm though.

Oddly, most people are having issues with the smoky scenes. I thought it was fine. I don't understand why everyone is hating on the girl who plays Alex. I would've preferred that they did the scene ala the Ecko scene, but whatever. Ben being surrounded by a circle of smoke was weird/cheesy.

What's up with Locke? They were strongly pushing us to wonder what's up with him.

1. Locke went off into the jungle when Ben went to summon smoky.

2. Locke went missing during the smoky scenes and returned after Alex left.

Why did they have to go to the temple? In last year's ep the smoke monster came in like 2 minutes. I'm sure they'll explain it.

Biggest question. Where are the Others? I started thinking that the time period they (Locke and co.) are in right now is post WAR.

I know it isn't but where the f are the Others and why is everything destroyed? Maybe the freighter people did this. They did attack the barracks.

Tha Kid said...

What if Iliyana is just acting like Sawyer? Like how he took the guns and said there's a new sheriff in town.

I know that her saying the SHADOW line suggests Dharma, but maybe she just heard that line somewhere like Desmond did.

mb said...

You mean maybe she's just trying to seize leadership of the 316ers?

JoeSC said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
JoeSC said...

"You mean maybe she's just trying to seize leadership of the 316ers?"

She can seize my leadership ANY day!!!

mb said...

I'm rewatching, and Illana and the other 3 people that seem to be part of her group are going somewhere. They're packing all that crap into that big crate and then after slamming Frank in the face she says "Tie him (Frank) up, he's coming with us"
I don't think she just wants to take control of the 316ers

memphish said...

She's going to the big Island MB. In 2 outriggers and then they'll shoot at the Sawyer group who are flashing through time.

Holli
/setup

Chris JC said...

KABLAMO!?

PalmerEldritch said...

hmm... hope juliet doesn't shoot knocked out frank!

memphish said...

So did anyone, besides me, watch Harper's Island last night? It was kind of like a Melrose Place on vacation on an Island with gory killings and one guy with an atrociously bad accent. Certainly not great TV, but it might be enjoyable in a slasher film sort of way.

We're off to the zoo today. Hubby operated on the zoo director and we're hoping he's going to show us something cool and behind the scenes. Photos may follow.

Holli

PalmerEldritch said...

"good to see you again, doctor. and a pleasure to meet your family. i know you are all excited to check out the zoo but follow me and i'll take you to the secret part of the zoo that no one knows about where we keep the unicorns and the bigfoot."

memphish said...

I think it being Memphis we're more likely to see secret snipe and jackalopes.

Holli

Rrb said...

The snipe Hunt is on! Never heard of said Snipe till I listened to a Scott Sigler short story! Tricky little critter's, a little like Ben. I'm hoping Penny's Mum is not Miss Hawkins and something cooler more along the lines of the Hanso or DaGrootsy bloodline. It's always bugged me why her mother is never even Mentioned???
Is she dead?
Insane?
or a big puzzle piece they'll pull out to prove they have "Always had a plan"?
I'm leaning towards the later with abit of the former. She is DHARMA Baby experiment?..with Danielle??? f@#$'s my poor spellin' Hell Kyle's got one up one me:)

Rrb said...

Bacon? BOObies? any one any one?

PalmerEldritch said...

i may have some bacon at lunch today. it is, after all, burger day.

so, get yer burger on. or whatever the kids nowadays say.

/doesnt speak jive

Kyle from Kentucky said...

bacon and burgers? hell it's good friday which means only fish for me

mb said...

I agree Holli - they are definitely heading for the big island. I was confirming for myself that they do in fact have some agenda beyond the 316ers.
So, I wonder if the Others knew Ilana and co. were coming, and so cleared out of New Otherton?

PalmerEldritch said...

where is Sayid hanging out?

PalmerEldritch said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Stephanie said...

Morgan and I have been psyched for Harper's Island. At the first commercial break, we forsake it for Buffy the Vampire Slayer. We might give it another try later.

mb said...

maybe Sayid went back to Oldham for another hit. He did seem a lot happier on acid.

PalmerEldritch said...

"Henry Gale in the Sky With Diamonds"

catherine martin said...

I am the Walrus (Torturer)

Ralph- said...

what's up? sorry i have been MIA lately. Things are busy in my neck of the woods.

How's it hanging?

catherine martin said...

Hey Ralph - when are you dropping another Lostiles on us?

Aiden said...

Live TLI today?

Stephanie said...

Holli, did the storms keep you from enjoying the zoo?

catherine martin said...

No TLI tonight?

JonFromNKY said...

From Twitter:

"Aimee found her house & is on her way home from OKC...Just passed exit 108 (seriously)...be home in less than an hour...recording 7:30ish!"

Ralph- said...

new lostiles is already up. looking forward to joining the TLI Chat!!

JonFromNKY said...

Lostiles = Nazi pamphlets on fire safety

Tommytheduck said...

I think that Ben eventually started doing the same sort of activities that got Widmore kicked off, and this is why Ben has "fallen out of favor with the Island." We get hints of this in S3 when we see his desk with passports and currency. John Locke calls him out on it in "Tallahasee" when he says it is not right for them to be living in the houses with electricity, etc.

Tommytheduck said...

P.S. "The Princess Bride" is one of the greatest movies ever made!

Tommytheduck said...

Have you read the book Aimee? I haven't yet but it's on my list. I'd hate for it to spoil the movie. P.P.S. The Hitchhikers Guide series is absolutely hysterical and suprisingly not all that dated. Everyone do yourself a favor and read the first 3 (they are fast reads) and forget about that awful movie that was made a few years ago.