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Lame discussions and poorly constructed theories about the hit ABC series "Lost." Call the TLI Ham Fat Line: (206) 426-3238
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185 comments:
"Every question I answer only leads to another one." LOL.
Wow, the episode has been over for 30 minutes and zero comments. Not sure what to make of that.
And I'm sure as hell not sure what to make of the episode!
Obviously no one saw THAT reveal for Adam and Eve coming.
So Jacob's brother suffered a fate worse than death. It appeared that the light went out after smokie came out of the opening. Does that mean that smokie IS the light somehow? And if he (it) is, is there any way to return it back to the island where it was? Maybe drowning Locke would do it?
And why couldn't Jacob see dead people?
And what the hell was that game they were playing?
Finally, an ancient dead girl MBK:
Claudia, Jacob's adopted mother, and Isabella.
ok, 1 comment. Aimee was obviously writing that one while my long winded ass was typing mine.
You nailed it Aimee! Best line of the night.
BTW Aimee, did those monster storms in Oklahoma affect you last night?
I haven't made up my mind on this episode yet. I think I'll need to watch it again before I can form a solid opinion. It definitely wasn't was I expected.
As far as the game, here's the explanation from Lostpedia:
Senet: The Man in Black finds a Senet board and pieces on the beach and claims to know how to play without ever having played it before. Senet may be the oldest board game in the world. Senet boards were often placed in the grave alongside other useful objects for the dangerous journey through the afterlife.
No, but they cut out a fucking scene because there's some tornado shit going on in the middle of nowhere. It cut out right when Claudia said, "I have something to show you" and came back with mini-MIB all covered in blood.
I have to drive to Dallas tomorrow, so I won't be able to watch the scene I missed til tomorrow. Plus, Mike 2.0 was here with me, and he never shuts the fuck up no matter how many times I yell at him to. The saddest part is, he takes my attitude like a biatch. I still don't know why he likes me.
So Jacob took his brothers innocence.
I'm sold that was a solid good episode. I'm glad that Jacob isn't all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-good. He's a tooly douche or at least he was... maybe he learned something in all those years.
All the more reason Jack has to be the new Jacob.
So I'm trying to figure out what Smokey is. Is he just Jacob's brother's "spirit?" Or is he something the island kinda threw up? Either way, we are totally never ever gonna know his name. And if he's island throw up, he doesn't really need a name.
I'm assuming that whatever he is, he just chose "Silver Fox DILF MiB's" body to change to, since he's that guy was dead.
Sorry if that doesn't make sense.
So he fell into the light and then smoke came out and his body was just discarded. I don't get it.
so, jacob was supposed to protect a shiny pot of gold? weird.
ok episode. nothing too fantastic though.
surprisingly, LOST ends up being because of Mommy issues. huh.
did that fucker just not ever get a name? no wonder he was so pissed.
when did the egyptians get to jizz island to draw pictures of smokey?
the "explanation" of jacob and "the other brother" was just that they were raised by a crazy lady who found a night light in a hole in the ground?
and did not-Jacob's stick a wheel into a bright light plan make any sense to anyone?
marry: claudia
bang: isabella
stab while she's looking at a senet board: jacob's mom
Really? You don't know? Come on Aimee.
But hey, this is a Lost blog.
And are you still sure that Jacob is good and Smokie is bad?
Jacob's adopted mother told him that they were the same after he drank the wine.
This is the same woman that murdered his mother right after she gave birth.
Maybe Smokie is only trying to give the light to all the world so that we humans can achieve a new level of being (an enlightenment if you will pardon the pun).
And maybe Jacob is just a scared little bitch that never questioned his psychopathic mama, and doesn't want the light to get off the island simply because that crazy bitch also didn't want it.
So if one bathes in the magic hole, would you that be considered a "golden shower"?
also if the smoke monster is the personification of the light, would that make Jacob's mother and then Jacob(after drinking the kool-aid) the personification of the darkness?
Did Jacob go as crazy as that broad? Crazy people do looooove to make lists.
anyone else expecting Warwick Davis to chase off Jacob and his mom when they got too close to his pot of gold in that cave?
It felt very Pulp Fiction-y...
I thought the exact same thing, Joe.
And I didn't mind the little flashback to when we first saw Adam and Eve. Some might say it was tptb dumbing it down, but I liked it.
Aimee, here's what you missed during the Oklahoma Thunder coverage:
Crazy mama said she wanted to show him "Where he came from". It turns out she meant this literally.
Unfortunately, "Aunt Flo" was in town at the time, and THAT is why young MIB was all bloody.
Holder, I agree about the Adam & Eve flashback.
I think without that scene, there could have been some casual watchers wondering just what show it was they were tuned in to.
I don't mind them occasionally dumbing it down a little.
yeah...you're disgusting...
MOM'S PERIOD BLOOD FTW
I know. I just couldn't help it. Sorry everyone.
wait... ghost-mom? or island-mom? cuz island-mom's not his real mom so that's fine, denass.
in non-incest or menstruation news, i make fun of this episode but it wasn't horrible. just kind of wacky.
they're protecting a magical hole in the ground?
i guess it's sort of like a three year old asking "why?" to everything.
jacob protects the island.
why?
cuz his mom told him to.
why?
cuz that's what she did when she was alive.
why?
MAGIC HOLE IN THE GROUND!!!!
I agree. The episode was wacky.
I will give credit to Titus Welliver (MiB), though. He put on a hell of a performance and really made me empathize with MiB's plight. When he was standing over the burned village, the look on his face was just awesome!
So it seems like drinking the wine was the "ceremony" that made Jacob the new protector of the island. And so I was thinking that the candidate will eventually drink this wine to become the new Jacob. But a friend pointed out that Jacob already had Richard drink the wine. Is it possible that Jacob tricked Richard into taking his place? And this is the real reason why Richard is ageless. After seeing this episode, it doesn't really make sense that Jacob, who is just a human, should have the ability to give eternal life.
I kind of like that we never got his name. We don't need MiB's name because the character we are dealing with now isn't Mib it's just the smoke monster.
Now, I do wish they would have just not said his name as opposed to repeatedly showing us that he (apparently) didn't have a name... because that's just weird.
So if the light is now the smoke monster in a body... how does the donkey wheel work.
So many questions.
I have a headache.
Haters to the back of the line.
I like LOST.
It did get annoying when they kept teasing the fact that we weren't going to learn his name.
Maybe we can just call him "He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named", or Dark Lord, or Cliff.
Damn.
My official first comment had to be one word.
No matter how it ends, I'm happy. The show basically makes sense now.
Ok, so the Smoke Monster is the Light. My new theory is that when Brother was thrown in there, he became the Light and is no longer human. Hence, "I was once a man."
The only complaint I had about this episode is how they revealed Adam and Eve. Once Jacob laid the two bodies together and interlocked their hands, etc. I think every one and their mommas knew they were Adam and Eve. No need to intercut with that scene.
Other than that, awesome episode. I hope next week's is a continuation of the story from where we left off tonight and the series finale is where we see present time again.
I would rather NOT have an explanation about the donkey wheel than a half-assed "no-answer"
BOOOOOOOOOOOO!!
Nope. Not this time LOST.
"Across the Sea" just gave "Further Instructions" a run for it's money
Ralph,
Sanity on the blog at last!
Was reading all the posts and have decided people are kidding themselves it was a great episode. I think in a day or two the knives will be out. It blew! Like the Phantom Menace...I'm kind of in shock how this show has lost it's original stature.
Consider there are only 2 more episodes...this show is going absolutely nowhere, and I'm really disappointed in that.
Wow. 2 people didn't like this episode?
I agree that it had a Phantom Menace feel, but there was no Jar Jar Binks or pod race. If that shit was not in Phantom Menace, it would've been a damn good movie.
Oh yeah, and the kid that plays YOUNG BROTHER did a great job. Unlike the kid who played YOUNG ANAKIN.
- looking forward to Fringe & Supernatural this week!
This episode WILL kind of suck in hindsight if next week's episode is not the continuation of the story from here.
Last thing.
I am still Jacob is a chump. I was on Brother's side until he pushed Desmond in the well and told Sayid to kill him.
Anyway, someone was talking smack about Jacob that he listens to his "mom", etc. but we have seen that Jacob leaves the island. The main thing his "mom" didn't want Jacob or Brother to do.
" but there was no Jar Jar Binks " Untrue. The Golden Tunnel of Love was Jar Jar.
The flashback at the end was an insult to fans. I think if Jacob gave a heartfelt speech over the same footage, it could have been salvaged, but instead they had to keep the dialogue from the original episode.
I thought it could have actually been powerful seeing Locke, juxtaposed to Jacob's brother, but by keeping the dialogue, it was just insulting to the people who have been paying attention.
What more did we learn from hearing them tell us Adam and Eve? NOTHING! They reminded us in "The Lighthouse" about Adam and Eve. We did not NEED to hear them say Adam and Eve again.
That episode was an insult to me, as a fan.
uhhh....what?
Best part of the episode? "Our very own Adam and Eve." I miss you season 1 John Locke.
This episode was not cramazefuckingballs. Instead, it was shit.
Jacob is just a tool that did what his crazy not mommy told him. And He who must not be named/Cliff got fucked over by his crazy not mother.
Wine drinking - i dont get it. I guess Richard is the new Jacob?? I dont know it makes no sense.
I guess the light went out?? No clue
I mean I come off this episode feeling more on the side of he who must not be named/Cliff but that's not supposed to happen right?
Oh Season 6. Once again I went in with HUGE expectations and was not blown away whatsoever. BOO Season 6.
Bad bad episode. I wasn't invested at all except for like someone else said Titus did a hell of a job.
I hope next week we get a whole flashback episode which explains why there is a stamp on the shark. Then for the finale we finally learn the REST of Jacks tatoos. Then and only then will I be satisfied.
I didn't and still dont give 2 shits about Jacob nor he who will not be named/Cliff. I like Sawyer, Desmond, Hurley, Sayid, Season 1 John Locke, Ben, and Cliff and etc...Not interested in crazy bitch nor the original others.
Adam and Eve Carlton Cuse February 2004 - "We put the skeletons in there to show the fans we knew what we were doing since the beginning."
...Ok. SURE you did.
Boo Damon.
Boo Carlton.
I'm ready for this shit to end. Just please dorky writers make it memorable. I know you have something left in you that is iteresting. Season 6 is horseshit pretty much. BOO
In the season 5 dvd extras Carlton said that the last season was like a big christmas present that we finally get to open. Why does it feel like socks from grandma that are too small that I have to throw away?
He said that they've been wanting to tell this story for so long and that season 6 is the best part of that story.
^ that's absolute bullshit.
Just listened to TLI from the last episode.
Aimee, the reason I was on BROTHER's side (kind of shakey now due to the Desmond thing) was because I felt like Jacob had turned him into the smoke monster in order to trap him on the island.
Ironically, tonight we learned Jacob ACCIDENTALLY turned BROTHER into the Smoke Monster in an effort to get him off the island.
Well, sorry some didn't like. I thoroughly enjoyed. I feel like if you can accept (which us hard to do for hardcore fans) Fake-moms assertion about answers this is an enjoyable piece of the overall story. It felt very much like a biblical tale not just in the story elements but in the way that many things are simply not answered and you are left to think (like " what is the light."). I think they put forth a bit of vagueness here and you can take it or leave it. Fake-moms assertion that questions just lead to more questions was pretty much advice straight from Cuselof on how tp watch this ep. There was NO way to do this particular story interestingly without pissing off some people. I disagree that the show is going nowhere, it seems like they are being pretty precise about what information they are using the last few hours to give.
And re: the flashback to explain Adam & Eve, of course it was overkill for US, but tje bottom line is they are not just writing the show for us, as Cuselof have said, they have to write it for the masses out there who I'm pretty sure need stuff spelled out. It would actually be interesting if Lost was an HBO series, they wouldn't have to spend time explaining as much I imagine. Anyway, I should be asleep. I just woke up with insomnia and thought writing this might get me sleepy again. It hasn't. Ralph, Jimmy, would really love to hear a few more specefics about why you didnr like the ep.
Nite (I hope)
You know the saying, "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all"?......
I've already said too much.
If they had aired this episode as episode 3 of the season or even last season I probably would have loved it. As it stood, I watched it, occasionally went, hmm, that's interesting, and ended insulted with the Adam and Eve flash to Locke, Jack and Kate.
Kyle's Christmas sock analogy works for me. Throw an orange in the toe of that sock and it's complete. I hate oranges, and giving them to kids for Christmas is a giant FU Kid.
Holli
Ok. Get ready.
I'll give you my positives first.
Titus Welliver was amazing to watch. I kinda even liked the Adam and Eve scene. Great casting for young Jacob. Looked and acted just like Mark Pelligrino.
But this was the hardest episode of Lost to watch since Stranger in a Strange Land. This was ridiculous. As soon as Allison Janney came onscreen I was snickering. Allison Janney? From West Wing. They should have cast an unknown. I was completely taken out.
A light. The secret to the island is a light that turns you into a smoke monster.
Damn you, Damon and Carlton for fucking up the legacy of one of the greatest shows ever. Lost is turning into BSG. We thought since the writers got to choose the ending that the show would go out with a bang. Nope. Complete shit. I'm so pissed.
I see why people are grumpy about the Adam & Eve scene, but I know why it was necessary. Imagine watching the show for the first time, only there are no podcasts, no Lostpedia; when someone buys the DVD or gets it as a gift next year--they will be completely new to the whole experience. Honestly, Adam & Eve aren't that important to the show, but to the new viewer--they're not going to remember them from season 1.
I liked the episode, but I was frustrated by it. We're so near the end, and I don't see why the whole episode was necessary in what could have been summed up in half the time. We have more important things to get to in 3.5 hours. Widmore's motives, Desmond, flash-sideways, etc.
Arrgh!
Oh, and "pissed" except - oddly - that seems to be the one word that's slightly more frowned upon here.
blogspot still fubared?
sweet. we can post again.
cant remember what i wanted to say though.
let's see...
oh yes. episode wasn't absolutely horrible. but it wasn't very good either.
focused on a lot of stuff i didnt really care to know and neglected some stuff i did want to know. and the cave was goofy as all get out.
however, some have embraced the goofy. charlie jane over at io9 apparently loved the cheese and wrote an article about it.
"Pissed" is one of our milder swears, Chris. Is it still "drunk" in GB instead of "mad" as it is here?
When it's just "pissed" yes - or it means "urinated" obviously.
And in further confusion, where you say "mad", we would tend to stick with "angry" because we generally use "mad" to mean "insane".
We still use the full phrase "pissed off" for angry.
All of the examples above are the only swears I can think of that are slightly more shocking here than in the US. Literally all the others are the reverse.
The episode ended last night, and I wasn't very satisfied. I rewatched this morning before I left for work. I have to say, I liked the epidsode a little more, but still was not satisfied.
Acting - "A"
Story - "C" but
Progression of the LOST story - "F"
I hope that the next 3.5 hours of the show changes my perspective on this episode. Otherwise I fear that my overall grade for the LOST storyline resolution will also be an "F."
I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the next 2 episodes will help me enjoy this one in hindsight.
I often wonder about countries with English as a second language. Does the f word translate properly? I have the feeling it isn't as rude in Europe as it is here.
Holder:
People have the right to bitch. Simple as that. If you liked it, great. I didn't...I think the last 2 seasons have been very, very disappointing.
This blog has been filled with those who like it, those who don't for 5 years...that's why it's a fucking awesome blog.
Well, no-one's gonna top that.
That's a great io9 article - thanks P!
The guy is right - this was such a huge piece of the puzzle that so many people have been asking about (granted, not as many people on this blog), I realize now how normal the current polarization in the fan community is over something like this. Lost let it's freak flag fly once again last night (just like introducing Jacob in the flesh, and incorporating Time Travel into the story) and was decided to go with a parable-like story to underscore the mystery of the island while still giving some basic (and yes i agree they were pretty basic) answers to SOME questions.
I don't mind freaky. I do mind being treated like I have Alzheimer's and need to be shown and told this is the answer we are going to spoon feed into your Anthony Cooper-like dribbling mouth. That Adam and Eve scene went a long way to undermining the show's credibility as an intelligent show for intelligent viewers.
I think TPTB have every right to make the story-telling choices they want to make in terms of what motivates characters and to tell it in the order they want to. But I as the viewer also have the right to think and feel that they are missing opportunities to tell the story in a more emotionally compelling fashion in terms of both the mythological and character based narrative.
For me, this entire season has been off the rails. I'm happy for those of you like Holder for whom the season has connected satisfactorily. I'm sad for those of you like Jimmy and Stephanie for whom the show jumped the tracks even earlier into its run. I hope the next 3 1/2 hours rebound for me. It's all I have left.
Holli
So I really liked the episode but I feel it was just very out of place. I feel like if it was earlier in the season I would have enjoyed it more.
Thing is, us lot were probably thinking about Adam and Eve as soon as the black game pieces first appeared and doubtless realised from the moment Mother Nutso picked up the two stones that she was Eve and I would wager that we followed on pretty quickly with the idea that No Name would be Adam, and was therefore able to assume that he would die and the monster would take his form without seeing any of it happen.
But I watch these week on week with people who have seen every episode, mostly WITH me, and yet will still have questions. When MiB showed up in Ab Aeterno, I had to remind one of them who he was and I know that they will appreciate the Adam and Eve clip from the first season.
Having said that - I do tend to agree that in this last season they should perhaps have stopped giving a damn about the casual audience and just done the show for the hardcore nutters. A few too many times they've felt the need to over-explain things where they could have just honed the whole thing to fuck and presented an amazingly streamlined series.
Still, I'm enjoying it more than nearly any other long-running US series that I've watched from beginning to end, week by week. If for no other reason that it's so bloody rare that UK television makes that possible (and in fact, UK television buggered it up by having a pay channel pick the series up from season 3 onwards, but by that time I was dedicated to the shady approach).
Holli, I hear you on the frustration of sitting through a moment which seems painful in it's obviousness. Feels like your being talked down to. Fact is, a lot of viewers (my wife included) DID need that level of transparency to make the connection clearly. It's the same problem we've discussed ad nauseum here with regard to the "enhanced" clip shows and it doesn't make those moments any easier to sit through, but that kind of crap DOES work for the casual viewer.
Also - more generally, I've been wanting to say after reading more and more reviews, I don't think any of us should be taking something that's (I think) to be expected in a network prime time drama to some degree (i.e. over-explaining an idea) as "an insult" to our intelligence, as different as Lost can be, they're still just writing a TV show for ABC and they CANNOT simply write it for people like us who like to see ourselves as "better" TV watchers. It's just a necessary trade-off with any creative endeavor that you're trying to bring to a mass audience.
Please understand that I'm not saying the opinion is wrong, or trying to belittle anyone here - I'm just noticing a lot of what sounds like anger from a lot of people on the web in general about this episode and I have to say I think it all needs to be put into perspective. If I'm misreading things I do apologize.
didn't see Chris' post before I posted.
lmao - "Mother Nutso" is now my name for Alison Janney's character. awesome.
oh yeah. many casual viewers i know definitely needed the painful over explanation.
it was pretty goofy for me, as a hardcore LOST fan because i knew exactly what was going on and didnt need a lick of explanation.
however, it was a hamhanded flashback to five years ago and i've been sitting through Flashforward which does hamhanded over explanations from scenes five minutes ago. ugh...
that said, the episode was kind of meh. but i think i'll like it better with time and distance. i was just so f'n ramped up from last week and i ended up getting this wacky heap of weirdness??
Well, I've finally calmed down enough to post. I can't believe last night's episode. A real waste of an hour with only a little over three to go. Why did they bother with all the filler? And now they say they need an extra half-hour to complete the finale. No wonder, with all the crap they're throwing in that has nothing to do with the story. OK, Adam and Eve are answered...I could have lived without knowing that. I can only hope that next week is better, and I will stick with it, but am expecting to be very disappointed.
kablamo
Ok, so this is what i am hoping happens. We all know that Locke threw Desmond in the well. We all know that Desmond's conscience had the ability, due to Widmore's ultra fancy electro magnet machine, to travel to another time and dimension. We know that Jacob's brother has been digging these wells with Electromagnetic Properties and that he built the "donkey wheel" because he is "special".
How does Jacob's Brother know to build the Donkey Wheel? How does he know he's special? It better be because Desmond showed up in one of those goddam wells and told Jacob's brother that he is special and to build the Donkey Wheel. THIS WAY, it will explain why Locke (who is inhabited by Jacob's brother) threw Desmond in the well...So he can go back in time and set all of these events in motion.
i actually liked the 'adam & eve' scene because i was struggling to stay awake and it was great seeing season 1 LOST stuff.
I personally like the episode a lot but I did feel two bouts of disappointment:
1) ONLY 2 episodes left to wrap EVERYTHING up! I am so glad they added that extra 1/2 hour to the finale, because I think they are going to need every second of it to even wrap up the major plot points.
2)Although this epi explained the origin of Jacob and Flocke, it just pushes the real answers back at least one generation:
So how did Momma Smokey get to the island? How was she chosen? By whom? Why do they protect "the Stream of Life"?
I do want the ultimate answer to the beginnings of the island, but not at the cost of the current timeline's story being told fully and completely.
And that's all most of us care about. Whether we end of agreeing with the direction of the show (I have never cared for the whole time travel thingy), we want to see a logical and complete ending.
I am along for the ride and will reserve judgement until the 23rd and 10:30pm!
That's pretty good Ralph - I like it.
Susan - I see big holes in the storytelling with Across the Sea (and some wasted opportunities), but I would not call it filler or say that what happened last night has nothing to do with the overall story. Unless they are going to largely ignore Jacob and MiB as players in the final endgame (which some here might prefer), then we needed to see where they came from and get at least some perspective on why these two characters are behaving the way they are.
What we are all really fearing in our hearts about The End
Lost+Muppets
jacob and brother in a commercial from Jimmy Kimmel the other night.
fantastigreat.
lmao - we are all of one mind
I was coming back to post both links that P & Steph just did.
An even worse idea than the Adam and Eve scene. From ABC Inner Circle:
Text In Your Final Transmission for the LOST Series Final Event
There are only TWO new episodes until the LOST:THE FINAL SEASON Series Finale Event on Sunday, May 23rd at 7|6c on ABC. In celebration of this iconic series, we're giving you the chance to tell the world what LOST has meant to you. Just watch the May 18th episode, during which a special code will be provided that allows all Verizon customers to text a "goodbye" message to LOST. Then on Sunday, May 23rd during the LOST:THE FINAL SEASON Series Finale Event, selected fan messages will appear throughout the first two hours of the show helping us pay tribute to this incredible series. Don't miss your chance to be a part of LOST history!
Does putting texts into the 2nd hour mean they are going to be airing over the actual show? Surely not. It certainly makes me less likely to watch the recap.
Holli
They have to be talking about the clip show..they have to
oh god I'm scared
OK - feeling more confident re-reading that quote -
they said "...during the LOST:THE FINAL SEASON Series Finale EVENT
The EVENT starts with the 2 hr. clip show right? I think you're right Holli - the "first two hours" is the clip show. Well fuck - I actually was going to kind of enjoy the big recap to ramp myself up. I question doing that now.
Interview with Damon and Carlton about Across the Sea
alright. jacob and smokey are twins. but which one's Schwarzenegger and which one is DeVito?
MB, thanks for that link.
I really liked the line from Darlton about how the episode with the most answers is also one that has generated a LOT of dislike from the fan community.
Personally I enjoyed it, and while I wasn't crazy about the Adam & Eve scene, I understand why they did it.
I also think that anyone who was "scanned" by smokie/he-who-shall-not-be-named/Cliff and has subsequently died, now has his/her "light" trapped inside smokie. Remember how "Every man has a little bit of this" inside of him.
However I'm still completely clueless about how they're going to reconcile the sideways with the on-island.
I will be SO pissed if I die in some freak accident before the finale!
- http://www.profilesinhistory.com/items/lost-auction-preview
you can own Sun's pearl necklace!
- just to be clear... i love LOST. last night's episode was painfully terrible.
I was iffy on the episode at first, but I just finished rewatching it and must say that it was a lot better the second time around. Still not awesome, but better.
I knew exactly what to expect going in and found the story much more enjoyable because of it.
just listened to TLI.
like the first 2 minutes of Felixs call was so funny I was literally in tears.
We wont have answers to these questions and more in todays official LOST podcast.
Buenos noches Damon...
awesome dude
Seeing a clip of it on the BBC is probably not the best way to find out that Kevin "Keamy" Durand is playing Little John in Robin Hood.
Apparently Arthur "Rory" Darvill from Doctor Who will play an unspeaking stablehand too. Rare Who/LOST crossover.
Kyle, I have a special request for you. Could you please send me your email-address to: info@felixkraus.com
Thanks in advance and glad you're enjoying my calls, as I'm digging yours.
cu, brotha.
Awe hell! A Felix/Kyle from Kentucky crossover call!
I just realized why this episode really turned me off.
I think it was the actually seeing a magical tunnel of light looked really dumb and may work on paper but is too far from what we are used to. The "magic" on the show was implied, but it left room for interpretation. By showing the magical element it leaves you no room for interpretation.
The concept has always been science vs. faith. I have always been on the side of science. My interpretation of Jacob's healing powers were due to the fact that the electromagnetism that cured Locke, was injected into Jacob, much like being inundated with radiation, and he was able to carry that electromagnetic energy to those around him. That is why when he touched Locke and he woke up after being tossed out the window of the high rise.
This episode just told me that i was wrong in making my own conclusion of LOST being science as opposed to faith.
unless it's ELECTRO-SCIENCE in the cave of lucky charms. which it's probably not.
'The "magic" on the show was implied, but it left room for interpretation. By showing the magical element it leaves you no room for interpretation.'
real good point. agreed.
also, is tonight the Giacchino concert? you lucky LAers. but you'll miss Fringe which is pretty f'n awesome lately. and has no magic caves (yet).
Ralph -
Thanks for writing that - I had been meaning to formspring you or something to get more details on some of your specific objections to the ep (besides the Adam and Eve thing).
I hear what you are saying - an storytelling idea is almost always more powerful when the viewers imagination is involved. However, I thought that the fact that the entire episode was told in the style of a parable (withholding a lot of detail) helped me see things like the light as still a mystery. It felt just like reading a bible story to me - you take certain elements from it, but as a piece of storytelling, it's pretty vague.
If I saw this episode as the final answer on all details I would be really disappointed, but I don't. Looking back on the series it seems obvious to me now that the way to view the series is a story within a larger framework that the writers have created, like a comic series. I've been pretty sure for awhile that we are going to be left with as many questions as we had in the pilot, and I think that's awesome, because it allows for more storytelling by others, which I hope happens. But whether other stories are added to the Lost canon or not, I still enjoy the series more when thinking of it as a piece of a larger puzzle.
Jimmy Kimmel has better computer graphics than Lost.
This is what is pissing me off-
What are the themes of the show?
Redemption? Apparently not.
Faith vs Science? Nope.
Good vs Evil? The writers say no.
What do we have to grasp onto?
The writers say this isn't a mythology show, that it's about characters. Maybe a couple of seasons ago it was. But it's not now. I can't tell you what it is.
Good job, MB. Entertaining as always.
Am I right in thinking that the yellow/gold energy at the frozen donkey wheel, is the same energy in the river tunnel/heart of the island?
And since the island is sunken in the alt-verse, is the light gone in the alt-verse. And if everyone has a bit of it inside them (TWSS) like Mother Nutso said, what does that mean for everyone in the alt-verse?
had to get that out - now back to work
Where's the winery on the Island? Does it have a spa and destination dining as well?
Holli
Thanks Steph :)
And to respond to what you just said - good questions - but I am definitely waiting until 11:30pm on the 23rd to make my final analysis. I really know very few spoilers about the finale so I imagine there will be some surprises.
lol Holli - good question.
The bottle of wine Jacob had was the same bottle Mother Nutso had right. That's some old vintage.
so, LOST isn't about redemption or faith versus science cuz one episode stunk? not sure i follow you there.
Watching 30 Rock from a few weeks back. Not sure if this was mentioned back when it aired. During a speech in which Liz lists all the qualities she wants in a man, she says:
"knows to shut his mouth while I'm watching Lost".
HA! Is Aimee the real life Liz Lemon?
Not one stinky episode, palmer. A couple of less than great seasons.
Jack must be really bad at identifying how old bodies are based on decomposition. He said that they've been dead for 40-50 years, not ~1461 years.
What a douche.
he forgot to multiply by a factor of Magic.
Barely a peep from our two TLI hosts - they must be saving it for the podcast.
It is so f-ing gorgeous in PDX today! Want to go outside - feels like time to go check our mailbox @ the post office :)
Portland International Airport, mb?
Ryan, where did you get 1461 years?
KABLAMMO!
lol Steph. We tend to use our airport code to reference our city here - I guess that's a little strange - any other cities do that?
1461? I'm not quite sure, seeing as i meant to type 1961 years. I'm such a dolt.
I got the (correct) number from a combo of lostpedia and simple maths. They say that Jacob and MIB were born in 1BC and the episode ended in 43AD, so i just took 42 away from 2004.
Jack's still a douche though.
well kablamoed, MB.
jacob could be about 3000 years old since they used Latin. or significantly less. for story purposes, he's a "shit ton old."
looking forward to Kim calling shenanigans on the cave of golden grahams in the next TLI.
ryan, where did those guys get 1 AD from?
sorry, 1 BC. it's as good a guess as any other but it's still just a guess as far as i can tell.
LOST party planner.
FRIIIIIIIIINGE!
Lostpedia doesn't have any citations about where they got the initial figure for when the episode was set... which is annoying. But it's the closest approximation we've got.
I've been torn on writing my specific thoughts on the episode. In fear of if I were to start, I'm not sure I would be able to stop. That, and I didn't want to rain too hard on the parade of those who enjoyed it. I thought a couple snarky one-liners would suffice. But
it's been eating at me all week. So here goes nothing. Pretty sure it's going to be all over the place. Sorry in advance. (not really)
WARNING: This is likely going to be long. So Holder & those afraid of a lot of words. You might want to just scroll for a while. And MB, be prepared to disagree with just about everything I'm about to say. ;)
Holy crap that was bad. Yikes. Bad in the sense that I was bored out of my mind (I think I checked the remaining time of the recording about 20 times while watching). And bad given that we are in the home stretch. Big mistake Lost writers. BIG mistake. To abandon your main story that you just started to ramp up and to abandon your main characters just totally kills any momentum you possibly had going.
But mainly, it was just bad. As in not a good episode. I commented a couple weeks back saying that I was enjoying the season even though I wasn't sure if it was any good. I kinda felt that it was clunky and not well written. But I was still enjoying it because I was so invested with these characters and I have a built in love for their stories. And this episode took that and crapped all over it.
I was talking with a friend a few weeks back and said that if this season wasn't with the Lost characters that I have such a history. And it was a brand new show with new characters doing this arc of episodes, that I wouldn't think it was very good at all. That I'd prob watch one ep of that show and pass. Well if that scenario was in play and it was this episode that I saw, I'd flat out laugh at the show, then die of boredom, and never again watch it.
Seriously? A glowing hole at the end of a creek? And a crazy old woman protecting it? That's the contrivance you come up with to explain the smoke monster?!!! Really?! The way all these 'answers' have gone this season, the show might as well be re-named 'Deus Ex Machina'.
I've been saying this for a long time. I don't give a crap about the mythology. Because none of it has ever meant anything. It's all been ancillary filler to add to the main story of the show. It's the characters and their stories that make the show good. And this ep really drives that point home IMO. It was 100% mythology, 0% characters. And look what you got from it. I was so bored watching three characters that I care nothing about take up the entire ep, that I actually found the terribly insulting season 1 flashback hammer over the head to be a refreshing change of pace.
I've said more than a few times that I rather not find out who Adam & Eve were. I didn't want to know. Because I knew that it would only be a let down and insignificant in the grand scheme. And no matter the heavy handed "We've had this planned all along" oh so convenient bullshit flashback the writers stuck in there. You still won't convince me that scene with Jack saying that the bones were 40-50 years old by any means proves they had this planned AT ALL. Congrats Lost writers. You successfully found a way to connect the two scenes. You took your ambiguous little rocks and found a way to make them tie in to this after the fact crap you thought up last summer. Wow! It all makes sense now!!!
One of the biggest problems with the show right now is that the writers are too concerned and focused with ticking all the boxes off the fans' checklists, and not enough with writing a good tv show. This episode and the boring Alpert episode gave us almost absolutely nothing. All they did was show us stuff we already vaguely knew of, and filled in the blanks to show us how they happened. This crap in the grand scheme of Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley, Locke, etc (IE: the show we've all grown to love over 5+ years) means nothing. And to waste an entire episode on it this late in the game was just stupid. What's the next ep going to be? An entire episode devoted to showing us the origin of the Hurley bird?
And let's address that for a moment. The oh so important answering of the questions that people have become so hung up on. So hung up on to the point that they ignored and forgot why it was the show was actually good. It's so important that we get our questions answered, dammit! I mean, after all. Why else would we get an info dump (dump being the operative and literal word in this case) like this episode? And what exactly did it reveal? That Jacob was immortal and all powerful and magical because he had a crazy witch mother who made him that way. And that his brother the smoke monster became that way after Jacob threw him in the glowing troll hole. Ahhhhh. It all makes sense now.
No it doesn't. If anything, this episode raised more questions than ever. Why exactly is Jacob & (haha. we're not saying his name. get it?)'s mother able to give them magical powers? Who the hell is she? And how did she get to the island? What the hell is the magic glowing hole? And why pray tell did it turn manwithnoname into a hissing killer black cloud of smoke when he entered? And why if Jacob and bro were made immortal by their mother, why was Jacob able kill his brother's body? Especially when crazy mom said they couldn't hurt each other? And what exactly happened between brotherwithnoname finding out the truth and him building the donkey wheel?
NONE OF THAT CRAP MAKES ANY SENSE AT ALL! All you can say is magic! It's all magic and pixie dust. Which guess what?! If that was the case (and we've basically known this for a while now, WE DON'T NEED ANYTHING BEYOND THAT! Showing us the magic men and glowing butt holes doesn't explain anything. You aren't explaining or answering anything! You've already told me that you didn't have anything better than a magic made up explanation. I don't need to see it. You are just inundating us with contrivance after stupid made up contrivance that could be or mean anything. And watching it all happen and take place ultimately ends up just looking stupid. Palmer was dead on when he said that he was waiting for a leprechaun to jump out of the pot of gold at the end of the creek. It could've happened and not be one bit less silly than it already looked.
Just my own opinion. But this season has felt as if it's been Cuselof defensively writing so as to avoid any possibility of fans hounding them after the show is done and til the end of time. Far too self-aware and afraid. "Ok, so we've shut them up about Alpert. Now we need to show them the smoke monster origin, and we should be in the clear." That is not the creative process usually behind great works of literature or art. They are giving us what they think we want. Not something that they organically came up with.
And if that isn't enough. They're still writing the show for idiots and banging us over the head with things anybody who has stuck with the show is going to be able to put together. I've already mentioned how awful the call back to season one was. But I'll point it out again. It drives me mad that the show seems to be trying to cater to the two total extremes. The mythological minutiae obsessed & the casual fan (who prob isn't watching anymore). And they are seemingly totally ignoring me. The fan who appreciates the core of the show. What's made it good all along. The storytelling & the characters. And that's really frustrating.
I came into this season of the mind that whatever the show did, I'd prob be fine with it. I was even of the mind just a month ago or so that even though I didn't think it was great, I was still having fun. But this episode (along with other stuff innocent enough on it's own, but retrospectively kinda bad as a whole) has really caused me to change my tune. And that really sucks.
All that said, I'm willing to be that when it comes down to the finale, I'm going to have fun with it. The writers have proven over the course of the show that they are able to write fun, exciting action-packed finales. I am not expecting anything at all meaningful from a storyline standpoint. This season has been so aimless and kinda crappy that I can't possibly see how it could be anything more than decent. But at the end of it all, I'm willing to bet that the fun action along with saying goodbye to all of our favorite characters (remember, the stuff that made the show good?) will make for a mostly satisfying conclusion to the series. But that doesn't mean that the show overall hasn't really taken a nose dive. Ever since the writers decided the only way they could write themselves out of the corner they were in was by going the "it's all magic" route, it just hasn't been the same.
FIN.
On the plus side, it's made the whole show much easier to summarise: recently Kevin Murphy, formerly of MST3K, did a comedy Tweet explaining that he hadn't seen LOST beyond the pilot and could people bring him up to date.
My response was "a magic woman did it all".
Pretty much.
Jordan, reading that back it looks like I was just trying to undercut your impressive posts, but I promise I wasn't.
While I've had less of an exciting time overall with the last couple of seasons (the fact that I still don't own S5 on DVD should be a bit of a clue to myself), I've still enjoyed the show overall and I didn't get as much of a vile taste in my mouth about this episode as some others did but your... to call it a "rant" sounds petty, but your opinion above is an excellent read.
Thanks for the nice words, Chris. I'm fully prepared to get some backlash tomorrow (can't wait for MB to read it). But it's all good. Should be fun.
Part of what kept me from posting my thoughts was that it's very hard to summerize it simply. There is a lot to it all. And a lot more than I wrote. A lot of that stuff I could elaborate on about and then some. I jokingly thought of releasing a one episode solo podcast. As I felt I had just too much to try to fit under one roof of a blog post. But I decided to go for it anyway. Reading it back, it doesn't fully present all my thoughts exactly. But oh well.
I talked with a couple of the people on here who didn't think too highly of the episode. It was clear that they were far too beaten down to go into it much at all. So I felt a duty to represent. Haha.
well said Jordan.
i certainly believe that everyone involved in LOST is trying to make a great show, so, even if i'm not sure that they always live up to that standard, i'm looking forward to the finale.
Even if everything boils down to 'a wizard did it,' these 6 years of dedication have not been wasted because i enjoyed a lot of amazing entertainment on the blog, and in all of the podcasts. and Cindy.
"God bless us every one!" said Tiny Tim, the last of all.
Happy Birthday Ally!
Holli
I think you stated it fairly Jordan and I for the most part agree.
I'm just going to add 2 cents regarding wanting answers. As a person who went into the season interested in at least some answers, in part the reason I was interested in them was that in the first 3 maybe 3 1/2 seasons when we got answers they gave them to us in a clever way that made me feel good about connecting those dots. I think ever since Ben's spy on the boat they have failed to deliver answers satisfactorily by treating us like we're watching the dumb-hanced episodes without needing the pop-ups.
That said -- I hope no more questions are answered in the next 3 1/2 hours because my eyes are tired of rolling.
Holli
Hello Penny!
Holli
I agree with Jordan completely.
"All they did was show us stuff we already vaguely knew of, and filled in the blanks to show us how they happened"
^ exactly how I felt about this episode and several in this fairly crappy season.
The magic butthole cave is extremely frustrating. The worst part about it is it waters down the previous seasons where the island mystery was the biggest question we all had.
midichlorians.
Think about it this way though, if they hadn't "revealed" what the island was, then thousands of fanboys would have rushed the internet with their butthurt tears at 10.30pm next sunday, proclaiming that they deserved to find out what the island was and suchlike.
It may have not been a satisfying answer, but it's an answer none the less, and for such a long time, everyone who's watched this show has craved answers. So people really should stop complaining when the answer you got didn't satisfy you.
yeah. i think we're not the target audience for this episode. i think the target audience was people way too into the minutia of LOST. we are just enough into the minutia of LOST. :)
but, yeah, there are people who are still asking about where the magic box is and what is up with the hurley bird.
this episode was probably pretty satisfying to them.
for us, not so much. but i'm willing to have a turd of an episode every once in a while.
**There are NO spoilers below**
Next week's LOST is pretty fantastic. It made me forget all about Across the Sea and made it feel like a distant dream. A shitty distant dream
I won't spoil anything for you guys, but i have to say that his upcoming episode has my favorite scene of the season. Its just too bad it came so late in the game. I really do wish they could have done more of this sooner.
Quite the spew Jordan :) - good though
I assume you were ribbing me when you said I was going to disagree with everything, I totally do not. You make a lot of good points. For whatever reason, I'm more comfortable with this episode and it's vagueness than most. I guess I've been expecting for a while now (not b/c of any spoilers) that any answers we were going to get were either going to be vague, and/or bring up a million more, so I really wasn't expecting a reveal that was going to concretely tell me what the smoke monster was or what the yellow/gold light is. Doesn't matter to me. So this episode being like a parable just seemed like an interesting way to tell Jacob and MiB's backstory. That's what this episode was about for me - I could give two shits whether MiB was the one who built the Donkey wheel, or if the smoke was farted out of MiB's dead body, or Mother Nutso transported to the island from her mother ship and got left behind. They showed the backstory for 2 characters which our losties are going to be contending with (I assume) in the finale, and gave us the origin of their motivations, and sympathy for them (which I had none of for MiB). I'm good. I do want to see what happens to those two characters now, whereas before, I didn't really care (at least not beyond their actions toward the Losties).
That said - was this information presented in the best way? Obviously not for many of us. I'm not sure if Holli's idea earlier that this information would have been good earlier in the season is the answer, or if, like Ralph said about the Adam & Eve reveal, that we'd be better off not having any more information than they've already given us. These are the things that will always be open for debate.
Now I'm just praying that the Galaxy 15 Satellite doesn't fuck with the Lost finale
"Galaxy 15 could send signals that would interfere with AMC 11's signals. The interference is expected to occur on or around May 23"
I'm hoping that ABC isn't using AMC 11 next Sunday.
Excellent Ralph!
Getting very psyched for Tuesday and Sunday
Anyone have a laser-cannon or something that can shoot into Medium-Earth orbit on Sunday? and Galaxy 15's last known coordinates and trajectory?
in my previous long post, I meant to say that I had little to no empathy for MiB BEFORE this ep., and I do now (still think he's f'ed up now though)
Vincent was revealed to have been a unicorn the whole time, right?
THE LAST UNICORN.
And Vincent will go into the light and be sent to Planet Unicorn.
Holli
holli, a worthy spinoff.
hey, so, in the battle of Juliet versus Penny, Juliet triumphed! as FlashForward is now officially FlushedForward and V is coming back for a second season, hopefully called "V: The Annoying Son Gets Burned Alive Repeatedly Before Succumbing to a Fatal Case of Flatulence."
I want the 2nd season of V to be nothing but Elizabeth Mitchell and Morena Baccarin squaring off in head to head combat each week. They can start with jello wrestling and move on from there.
Holli
lizardbrains needs to grow her hair out first. some women look better with short hair, others are lizard queens.
I posted a few pics from last night. They are from the end of the evening.
http://tinyurl.com/24sle29
Beth took the majority of the pictures with her camera, i am still waiting on those.
i am not going to lie. Rebecca Mader looked hot last night. DONT JUDGE ME!!
Those are awesome Ralph. I totally approve of the Martin Starr photo, Lost or not.
Holli
I also got a picture with Paul Soter from Broken Lizard. It was a crazy night. I cannot wait to get the rest of the pics. I forget all of them but i know i have some with Michael Emmerson and Nestor Carbonell.
Apparently, Heroes has been officially canned today as well.
DISCUSS.
Still never watched Heroes
Ralph those photos are awesome! You lucky nerd!
Heroes is dead?
I can't hear myself think over the sound of no one caring.
Here is what went down last night.
http://tinyurl.com/2fvznl2
It is long, but only a snippet of what went down.
Jorge said that he did not take his Camera cord with him to NY, so i will not get the "juicy" pictures for a week.
"Apparently, Heroes has been officially canned today as well."
YESSSS!!! WOOO HOOOOOOOOO!!!!
I've watched the entire way. Mostly out of stubborn habbit the past couple seasons. Only reason I kept watching this season was I figured it was going to end and figured I'd see it through.
Coupled with 24 getting the boot. Double win for me! I'm free!!!!!!
Now we just need to do something about The Office, and I'll be totally liberated from shows I used to like but that now suck that I still watch out of compulsive habit.
Last night's Office as well as Secretary's Day was pretty hilarious.
"Those lumps are cats and they have names."
"We're gay for baseball."
Have to disagree Steph. I'm this close to dropping it. And this is coming from the guy who stuck with Heroes and 24 to the end.
Speaking of dropping shows. I have yet to watch any of V since it's returned from hiatus. I already dropped FF. So good riddance. I have all the ep's of V saved up. I have nearly entirely lost any interest in it. Should I just say smell ya later? Or is it worth going back to? What say you guys still watching it?
Figured I'd jump in here...
Fringe was cool as shit! Can't wait for part 2 of the finale next week.
Jordan - I totally agree with you on most of your points. If anyone read the interview with Damon and Carlton that was posted a couple of days ago, they sounded a little peeved by peoples reaction to the episode.
I got the vibe that they really just want to get this over with so they can distance themselves from it for a long, long time. But, the only way they knew they could do without being hounded by the answer-whores forever is if they "checked off" the major (and often insignificant) questions.
Ralph - It's a relief hearing some positive feedback on next week's episode. Really f'n cool that you got to go last night!
I haven't watched the last 4 episodes of V, so I don't know if I'm happy it got renewed. I'm glad the pulled the plug on Heroes. I watched the first season and made it about 3 episodes into the second season before I couldn't watch that heaping pile of donkey shit any longer. Good riddance!
Holli - Your Jello-wrestling prediction must come true. Perfect cure for that mediocre viewership!
I'm actually gonna miss 24. It's mostly a shell of it's former self, but it's about the only show of it's kind I've ever been able to tolerate. I'm just really interested to see how they segue into the 24 movie.
The last scene from Monday's episode was tough to watch!
Ralph - I'm very jealous dude. Awesome that you got to attend!
Jordan, I hear everything you're saying and I could not disagree more. For me, the whole point of Across the Sea wasn't to check off a list, but rather to give us character back story that outlines their motivations.
As far as the answers it gave, I feel like it was more detailed than "It's all just magic", but less detail than a blow by blow account of how the smoke monster came to be, where Allison Janney came from, why could Jacob and Cliff die?, etc...
I'd like a bit more of an explanation personally, but I'm satisfied with what was given.
Anyway, I don't want to sound argumentative. I just had a different experience on Tuesday night. I appreciate you sharing your opinions, just as I do with everyone on this blog.
I'm really gonna miss you guys when this is all gone.
See you in another life, Brother(s).
I've watched all of V, but I can't honestly recommend you do the same Jordan.
I know many of us just want to move along, but if you are interesting in opposing takes on Across The Sea, check out the most recent Orientation Ryan Station. Ryan McGee and Mo Ryan both disliked the episode, but their guest Noel Miller of the AV Club liked it, mostly because he viewed it in a broad thematic way and was able to move past the cheesiness of the glowing cave.
Holli
Sorry, that's Noel Murray, not Noel Miller.
Holli
I've long ago dropped FlashForward and V. Did I read that FF got canceled but V got renewed? Whatevs.
The reason I'm complaining about Lost is that I continue to hold the show to the standards it set for itself in season one. Undoubtedly I still love it because when I read this I couldn't help but cry. I just wish the show itself would move me again.
My podcast that will be entitled "Ef Lost" will record next week. Who wants to join Jordan and myself. Maybe someone would like to defend the show. Anyone?
- Carlton Cuse was a guest on The BS Report with Bill Simmons podcast. It's a really good interview. They address the polarizing nature of "Across The Sea" and, unlike the interview with Hitfix, Cuse does a good job of acknowledging some of the complaints and making me excited for the final hours.
http://c.espnradio.com/audio/314039/simmons_2010-05-14-161449.32.mp3
When r u recording Steph?
Yeah when are you recording?
I must echo Andrew's suggestion regarding the BS Report podcast with Cuse. Great listen.
And I say great listen, not just because it's entertaining and informative. But also because Carlton Cuse pretty much hammers home most of my issues with this past episode. And he basically straight up admits that the ep was written to shut up fans about answering stuff.
Here, let me quote him. This is his reply to Simmons pointing out the polarizing nature of the episode:
"This is what answers on Lost look like. There is this idea that the audience members have in their head that they want answers. But they don't really want them in the sense that giving answers can be didactic*
*The term "didactic" is used as a criticism for work that appears to be overly burdened with instructive, factual, or otherwise educational information, to the detriment of the enjoyment of the reader.
Cuse continues:
"We wanted to dispense with that so the remaining three and a half hours could be all about the characters and their resolution. THAT IS WHAT THE SHOW IS REALLY ABOUT."
I forgot to mention that he said this right after saying that all of the episodes that they have done have served purpose. He mentioned how Stranger in a Strange Land helped them realize that the show was spinning it's wheels and allowed them to be able to set an end date. Then he followed with the above quote.
It doesn't take much to read between the lines. He is flat out saying that they were forced to do this episode to shut up any fans who would bother them til the end of time with questions regarding Jacob and Smokey. And even though he also said he stands by the episode and feels they did a good job (of course), it's pretty obvious to me that he realizes how big a buzz kill it was to the season. And how much it really just doesn't fit in with the main narrative. That of the characters. What he referred to as "what the show is really about".
Sorry if this comes off as self-serving (not really :P). I just really enjoy hearing one of the creators of the show pretty much echo what I've been saying the past year and a half or so. Stupid island mythology minutiae is only intersting in small doses. And is best served as an appetizer. But it totally SUCKS as the main course and driving force. The show is about the characters and their story 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. It might not be the reason all of Lost fans watch. But it is the reason the show has been good for the most part, and at times great.
This blogspot has jumped the shark.
I just really enjoy hearing one of the creators of the show pretty much echo what I've been saying the past year and a half or so.
Yes Jordan - I know you do :P
Am listening to the BS report - totally agree that the only thing that matters in the end are the characters (like this is any big revalation and we and Cuselof haven't repeated this ad nauseum). Checking off a list of minutiae would indeed be didactic to the point of absudity. However, Across the Sea did NOT have a lot of detail (which is why so many people are frustrated with it I think)
I have certainly been one that has savored investigating some of the details, and with that comes (more importantly) figuring out which details are important. It's like solving any mystery - you're always asking "what's important?" and keeping an eye on the motivations of the people involved - that's what you're really trying to figure out. That's the endgame.
I see how you're reading Cuse's inference about answers and why they wrote this episode - but I think his quote is better read (since we're "reading between the lines") as saying "giving answers CAN be didactic - [that's why we didn't really give you any]" (save a ham-handed Adam & Eve answer).
They didn't give a lot of answers in Across the Sea but pretty much just told a story about these two guys and their history on the island cause that's all that matters going into the finale, which I assume is going to center around the Losties, Jacob, and MiB (no spoilers)
I liked what Cuse said soon after:
"It kind of depends on how you approach the show. If you've enjoyed the journey, if you kind of roll with the show, if you're not sitting there with a little checklist of questions that you hope are getting resolved, I think you will like the ending of Lost"
It is a good interview - recommended. Kind of cool to NOT hear Damon and Carlton together actually (and I like them together),
not to have a checklist but... Claire, Aaron, and a helicopter please. ;)
maybe Penny sends another boat to get Desmond and sends a helicopter from the boat to the Island and Claire gets on?
or maybe they've abandoned Desmond's vision. remember when Desmond had visions? he's had a myriad of super powers over the years.
MB, I liked the comment you quoted as well. I was going to include it in my post. But felt I'd gone on long enough. The reason I liked it (along with much of the Cuse interview) is that it assured me of two things. 1) That even though the show at times frustrates me, that in the end the writers are more of the mind of most of us (wanting a good story and good show) than they are the rabid answer demanding fans. Although over the years listening to Cuse and Lindelof it's become clear as day that they began to dread those types of fans. Also, I liked the fact that it sounds the pre-req info dump to appease those fans appears to be over. That bodes very well for the final 3.5 hrs. Like I said in my long post the other day, I trust these guys to put on a kick ass finale. They always do. Later in the podcast Cuse said, "We got to make OUR finale." I really like hearing that.
Also MB, I see what you're saying about your interpretation of Cuse's didactic comments. Honestly, what he meant is prob somewhere in the middle between you and I. But I don't think I am totally off. Reason being, he brought it up while discussing why the episode was not liked by a good segment of fans. And he said "fans think they want answers, but they really don't". The only way I can take that comment is "they want them, but when they get them they realize it's not the satisfying conclusion they were hoping for." He also went on to talk about how the episode featured characters that the audience wasn't familiar with and how that really is hard to deal with. I know you and I are always going to be on the opposite sides of the spectrum. But I really got the vibe from him that he was going with "this episode should serve as a cautionary tale to all those fans who've always demanded answers." After all, he used it as an example directing after citing Stranger In A Strange Land as having value for teaching them that they were spinning their wheels.
A couple other parts of the interview that I enjoyed:
- Cuse when talking about fans reading too much into every single thing. When he told the story about the writer who yelled at some student doing the same, "It's just a f'n piano!"
- When Carlton referred to hiring Lindelof on Nash Bridges as a 'baby writer'.
- He mentioned how it was network exec Llyod Braun who suggested a 'scripted version of Survivor' to JJ Abrams. Made me laugh as Lloyd Braun was a character on Seinfeld. Who I'm fairly certain was named after the same tv exec.
- When talking about the future of tv shows and how there will likely never be a big budget show like Lost again, Cuse brought up Breaking Bad as an example of how to do that well. ;)
- And one final tidbit for MB (and yes, it's all in good fun my man). Regarding our seemingly decade long debate over how much they really had planned from the get go of the series. Cuse talked about how when they were first tasked with running the show. That they thought there was no way they'd get a 2nd season. That they'd get 12 episodes, that that would be it. He mentioned how their goal was to make the best 12 episodes possible. And to potentially one day be a cool cult hit like The Prisoner or Twin Peaks that people can pass around to friends on dvd. That right there to me says that odds are that means they didn't have much in mind of big picture story. Nothing more than a good character vehicle taking place on 'weird creepy island with crazy shit happening'. But then he said it wasn't until between the first and second season that they were actually able to sit down and plot out the mythology to the show. It was the first chance they had since the moment they were hired that they were specifically focused on the one upcoming episode at hand. Yes, I'm sure there were a couple random ideas they had while making some of the season one ep's. But I highly doubt that time travel, donkey wheels, mythical beings, and glowing holes were at the forefront of their minds.*
*As always, whenever I bring up this debate, I must qualify it with the fact that I feel there is nothing at all wrong with doing a show in that manner. That is it how tv shows are made. Just my one big flag to wave over the years for when people try to read too deep into certain things. And for when they try to defend some of the shittier later season stuff as saying it was the plan all along. That's all. :)
- Mainly I just really enjoyed listening to Cuse be relaxed and laid back. And very real and honest about the process they went through in making the show. MB said it was cool to hear him not with Lindelof for once. I totally agree (and I like them together as well). I find Lindelof to be the far snarkier of the two. And the one who is much more inclined to talk in riddles and sort of talk down to the audience. And how I say, at times flat out lie. Cuse is very easy going so he goes with Damon's lead. But on his own, Carlton is a cool guy not really playing any games. It also helped in this interview that the host, Bill Simmons is a very cool easy going guy himself. And not a crazy overbearing fan or a cynical tv writer. He was very up front about some of his gripes. But didn't preseent them in a harsh way. And always made the discussion feel like it was just two dudes shooting the shit. I'm actually a big fan of the BS Report and highly recommend it. Even if you don't like sports (which I do), half of the time the topic has nothing to do with it. Good podcast.
Like Palmer, no checklist here either. But yeah, it would be nice if the importance of Aaron was some how followed up. That to me has been worse than simply a question needing an answer. It's a flat out dangling plot thread.
Things I'd like to see in the final 3.5: People getting shot, car chases, lots of explosions, WALT!!!, snarky Sawyer one-liners, somebody run over by a Hurleybus, JULIET, Widmore getting his just due, Kate & Tina Fey making out, VINCENT, motorcyles, a Mexican stand-off, MR EKO, and for it to all end with Jack getting a new tattoo.
I still think it should end with Hurley waking up, forty years after leaving the Island and just saying:
"Dude, I never found out why that bird said my name"
L O S T
What I want in the final 3.5 is an emotionally satisfying explanation for the existence of the sideways world, to know what Widmore's really up to hopefully concluding with Ben whacking his ass and Tina Fey's too, and for the characters on Island to act consistently with the characters they've become over the past 6 years. In other words, no flip flopping Juliet nonsense from the S5 finale.
And speaking of Tina Fey, Jon Hamm with hooks is one of the funniest things I've ever seen.
Holli
Chris, Speaking of Hurley. Do Brits ever say 'dude'? I mean like 20-30 somethings. I've been there a few times and don't think I ever heard it. Nor through British telly. Reason I ask it's a sadly overused word by myself and many of my generation. I think it's mostly a US thing. And specifically might be a mostly west coast thing.
We do, yes, but it's one of those words that we're aware sounds stupid in our various accents. It does come around every so often, though, as a stylistic thing.
A couple of friends of mine use it all the time, although I now realise that one of them only uses it in emails and text messages, I'm not sure I've ever heard her actually say it.
- worst case scenario endings:
* Kate makes a speech about the good and bad qualities of both Jack & Sawyer and explains why she's choosing the one she chooses.
* Hurley becomes the new Jacob and he makes a speech about the importance of trying to be the best people we can be. He wiggles his nose and the screen fades to white. Then it fades to Jack, back in LA, attending a recital by his son. Jack is slightly bewildered at first, but then shakes his head and lets out a little smile to himself. The music swells and the camera pulls back with a crane shot, as it fades to black.
* everything looks hopeless as the the losties are stuck in between the warring factions of the smoke monster and Widmore. Sawyer looks across his injured teammates. Kate holds her shoulder in pain. Jack, bleeding from the side himself, attendes to Claire's headwound. Desmond's scorched body, lays unconscious. Hurley stares ahead, unfocussed, his face fixed in panic. Sawyer steels himself for a suicide run to the super conductor widmore had constructed to destroy the Smoke Monster. He gives Kate one last wistfull glance, nods to jack and then... Suddenly there's blast of light to his side! There, floating a few feet off of the ground, in the middle of their wounded party, is Desmond, transformed into a being of pure light. It's a warm light, like that of the leprechaun cave of "Across The Sea." His body has become super-saturated with the electromagnetic energy of the island. His body crackles and he shoots out a lightning bolt towards Widmore's team, disentigrating Tina Fey. Another bolt shoots out, and the Smoke Monster howls in pain. The crackling increases as the light in Desmond's body intensifies until finally he explodes. The screen goes white. Desmond's voice is heard to say, "see you in another life brother." the white fades to reveal the losties completely alone on the beach, with only artifacts of the great battle left behind.
* the Losties hug each other in triumph, tears running down their cheeks. Suddenly Sawyer stops in his tracks, his face skyward, and he lets out a quiet "what the hell?" There is a gentle snowfall! Kate looks to jack with a bemused smile, which he returns. Hurley raises his arms and begins to twirl, his eyes closed, catching snow flakes on his tongue. Everyone begins to laugh joyously as the camera cranes out. The shot continues to pull back from the island, until finally revealing that the entire scenes is taking place within a snowglobe in a small child's hands. The child sits on the floor of his room by himself, transfixed on the globe in quiet play. from offscreen we hear a familiar voice growing closer. Chistian Shepherd's voice calling for "Jack!" Off-camera, the door opens, the light washing across the floor until it nearly touches the young child, revealing the shadow of someone standing in the door. "There you are, Jack." says Christian.
* Eloise Hawking stands in the middle of the battlefield. The horizon is an ominous deep red, and, above, the sky is completely covered in a thick black cloud, barbs of angry lightning running down its length. "You have to choose!" she says sternly, insistantly. Jack looks up a her through the mix of blood and tears running down his face, his broken body still cradelling Kate's corpse. "You have to choose, Jack." Mrs. Hawkings says again, a crack of thunder and a particularly intense bolt of lightning underlining her words. "yes" says Jack, quietly, surrenderingly. "YES!" he screams to the heavens, now with defiance. "good." says Ms. Hawking. The screen fades to white with a familiar sound, like rushing air. The white fades to familiar faces aboard a plane. Sawyer chats amiably with Hurley. John Locke smiles as he listens to Boone's earnest banter. The marshall offers Kate an orange juice, which she picks up with her handcuffed hands with a slight smile of appreciation. Rose nervously plays with a ring, until she lights up with happiness as Bernard returns to his seat. They share a few quick kisses as the camera drifts to an empty seat, Jack's seat. After a quick shot of Oceanic 815 flying comfortably across a beautiful sky, we cut to Jack sitting on a familiar piece of driftwood, contently looking out across the ocean.
* Under a gentle evening snowfall, on a busy street, festively decorated for Christmas, Jack and Kate walk arm in arm, excitedly examining at the warmly lit department store window displays. Kate's face lights up with a huge smile as she points at a big display with tiny toy airplanes hanging from fishing line amongst thick plumes of cotton clouds, and she goes running towards it. Jack laughs as her persues, slightly stymied by the bustling crowds. As he makes his way through the throngs of people, he comes to an abrupt stop as accidently bumps into a man's shoulder. He smiles, apologizing. There, standing before him, are Damon & Carlton. "Oh, that's quite alright, Jack." says Damon with a mischievous smile. Jack, not quite sure he heard his own name, smiles, as he pushes past. He catches up to Kate, still admiring the window display, and he wraps his arms around her from behind in a romantic embrace.
- sorry, i got carried away. writing purposely bad fanfiction is really fun.
Literal LOL! Good stuff.
Especially liked atomic battle action Desmond. And if they pulled off the BSG ending, I'd die of laughter.
* Amid the carnage, Jack finally gets to meet face to face with Jacob who, instead of being a genius, appears to be a gibbering madman. They get into an altercation and Jacob's mask comes off revealing a gorilla beneath, and then the gorilla mask falls off and wesee the maniacally laughing face of Jack beneath.
This mad Jack then runs and gets into a rocket and starts to leave the island. Jack, midget and a singing stranger get into a bus and escape the island, driving back to Jack's home in London.
Jack is finally free and he and the midget step into his home but after the enter, the door shuts automatically behind them.
Oh wait. (etc)
I have no idea which of those, if any, is the BSG ending and i think I shouldn't try to find out.
If you recognise the ending I did: shhhhh!
chris: pop!
I only did it cos I couldn't think of my own one :)
I am not a number!!!
I just want the show to be respected when we look back 10 years from now. Instead of like Battlestar Galactica- Oh well, at least the first half was good.
Same here Steph. It's crazy how much a less than stellar ending or final couple seasons can taint a show that was mostly good. I wouldn't say that 24 was ever a masterpiece. And it's good seasons only lasted a couple. But everyone totally forgets that the first couple were pretty solid. People only remember the ridiculous self-parody that came later. Just think of how it would be regarded if it ended 2 seasons in. It wouln't be the total joke that it's name warrants when mentioned today. And just imagine if BSG didn't end so...uh, whatever it is it ended like. It would be considered a masterpiece. But instead most people now are like you said. "Well the first half was great."
My favorite take on the Adam and Eve scene interspersed with our Losties is that it's there to remind us Jack didn't always wax his chest.
Holli
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